4 ms·

> A common PRC propagandic trope is that the ten thousand years of Chinese history doesn't lend the culture to democracy. That the culture is simply incompatibl

> A common PRC propagandic trope is that the ten thousand years of Chinese history doesn't lend the culture to democracy. That the culture is simply incompatible with the concept - the people need autocracy. Taiwan is a shining and obvious example otherwise. Totally agreed. The sentiment appears on HN regularly and it's extremely annoying when there's such an obvious counterexample.

dictum 7y ago
Interestingly, the sentiment doesn't appear only when China is discussed. There are a number of comments that boil down to "democracy has failed" or "democracy will fail in the next few years" (usually when automation is discussed). My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of neoreactionary theory that is slowly seeping into public discourse.
- stcredzero 7y ago
  There are a number of comments that boil down to "democracy has failed" or "democracy will fail in the next few years" (usually when automation is discussed). My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of neoreactionary theory that is slowly seeping into public discourse. My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of the newest progressive agenda to give more power to the federal government and to California and New York. What's been slowly seeping into the public discourse is, "Freedom? Meh." Don't like someone's speech. "F Free Speech!" The trend is to give either the government or big corporations more control over people's interactions at work, how employers pay employees, what information we receive, and how much privacy we have in commerce and the information we consume. The people must always fight the power and speak truth to power. What we have forgotten in recent years, is that the insurgents need to amass power to do so, and by amassing power, they often become the established power. I remember a quip about Postmodernism by a PhD student -- how it started out as something disruptive and edgy, then ended up as the stuff you had to spout to get your degree. The edgy, subversive media and academic movements of the 60's are now the media and academic establishment of 2019. When in doubt, always go to first principles and universal principles. Be skeptical of feelings -- governments and corporations have long been using emotions to manipulate people. Governments for thousands of years, and corporations started in earnest well over a century ago.
jhedwards 7y ago
Having lived in China though the scale issue does seem to be a problem. A brief Google shows that Taiwan has a population of a little over 23mil whereas Hunan province alone has around 67mil and Sichuan has 87mil people. Add to this that because of lack of development and the legacy of Mao many of these people either have no education or live in remote mountains or both. I'm not saying this means democracy is impossible, but if you work in tech I'd hope you'd be able to at least recognize that doing democracy in Taiwan is not even remotely comparable to doing it in China because of scale issues alone.
- i_am_proteus 7y ago
  What would prevent a federal system from working in China?
  - jhedwards 7y ago
    I believe China does in fact have a federal system. Everything is integrated all the way up to the top but every province does have its own government with some degree of autonomy as far as I know. When I lived in Hunan for example the Hunan government was doing some projects with foreign lawyers to develop laws protecting victims of domestic abuse.
    - ajdlinux 7y ago
      > every province does have its own government with some degree of autonomy That's not a federal system as generally understood. Generally, the distinction between a federal system and a unitary state with somewhat-autonomous subdivisions is that in a federal system, the powers of the subnational entities are constitutionally entrenched, whereas in a unitary state, the autonomy of a subnational division is at the will of the national government. The overwhelming majority of countries have some form of autonomous regional government, because it's impossible to run any sufficiently large country any other way, but the majority of countries are not federations.
  - pishpash 7y ago
    For one, you'll get the same problems as all the homeless pouring into California, or poorer Central Americans pouring over the border, and the subsequent backlash. Democracies will not support the sort of development model that China has pursued of massive wealth transfer and development of the hinterlands. Developed areas will want to wall themselves off but less developed areas will want populist policies. Add on top of that ethnic issues that would be easily exploitable by demagogues. More likely than not the country falls apart. Don't be so smug, the US and EU are only getting a small taste of the sort of problems that China has been facing for several thousand years as a diverse centralized state, and are already resorting to the sort of things that China ended up having to do with respect to social control and stability.

dictum 7y ago

Interestingly, the sentiment doesn't appear only when China is discussed. There are a number of comments that boil down to "democracy has failed" or "democracy will fail in the next few years" (usually when automation is discussed). My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of neoreactionary theory that is slowly seeping into public discourse.

stcredzero 7y ago
There are a number of comments that boil down to "democracy has failed" or "democracy will fail in the next few years" (usually when automation is discussed). My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of neoreactionary theory that is slowly seeping into public discourse. My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of the newest progressive agenda to give more power to the federal government and to California and New York. What's been slowly seeping into the public discourse is, "Freedom? Meh." Don't like someone's speech. "F Free Speech!" The trend is to give either the government or big corporations more control over people's interactions at work, how employers pay employees, what information we receive, and how much privacy we have in commerce and the information we consume. The people must always fight the power and speak truth to power. What we have forgotten in recent years, is that the insurgents need to amass power to do so, and by amassing power, they often become the established power. I remember a quip about Postmodernism by a PhD student -- how it started out as something disruptive and edgy, then ended up as the stuff you had to spout to get your degree. The edgy, subversive media and academic movements of the 60's are now the media and academic establishment of 2019. When in doubt, always go to first principles and universal principles. Be skeptical of feelings -- governments and corporations have long been using emotions to manipulate people. Governments for thousands of years, and corporations started in earnest well over a century ago.

jhedwards 7y ago

Having lived in China though the scale issue does seem to be a problem. A brief Google shows that Taiwan has a population of a little over 23mil whereas Hunan province alone has around 67mil and Sichuan has 87mil people. Add to this that because of lack of development and the legacy of Mao many of these people either have no education or live in remote mountains or both. I'm not saying this means democracy is impossible, but if you work in tech I'd hope you'd be able to at least recognize that doing democracy in Taiwan is not even remotely comparable to doing it in China because of scale issues alone.

i_am_proteus 7y ago
What would prevent a federal system from working in China?
- jhedwards 7y ago
  I believe China does in fact have a federal system. Everything is integrated all the way up to the top but every province does have its own government with some degree of autonomy as far as I know. When I lived in Hunan for example the Hunan government was doing some projects with foreign lawyers to develop laws protecting victims of domestic abuse.
  - ajdlinux 7y ago
    > every province does have its own government with some degree of autonomy That's not a federal system as generally understood. Generally, the distinction between a federal system and a unitary state with somewhat-autonomous subdivisions is that in a federal system, the powers of the subnational entities are constitutionally entrenched, whereas in a unitary state, the autonomy of a subnational division is at the will of the national government. The overwhelming majority of countries have some form of autonomous regional government, because it's impossible to run any sufficiently large country any other way, but the majority of countries are not federations.
- pishpash 7y ago
  For one, you'll get the same problems as all the homeless pouring into California, or poorer Central Americans pouring over the border, and the subsequent backlash. Democracies will not support the sort of development model that China has pursued of massive wealth transfer and development of the hinterlands. Developed areas will want to wall themselves off but less developed areas will want populist policies. Add on top of that ethnic issues that would be easily exploitable by demagogues. More likely than not the country falls apart. Don't be so smug, the US and EU are only getting a small taste of the sort of problems that China has been facing for several thousand years as a diverse centralized state, and are already resorting to the sort of things that China ended up having to do with respect to social control and stability.