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>It's hard to foster an intellectual elite in a dictatorship Have we forgotten about Nazi technical excellence, Werner von Braun, and the Soviet space program?

• oblio 7y ago
  > Have we forgotten about Nazi technical excellence, Werner von Braun, and the Soviet space program? One could argue that both the Nazi and the Soviet programs had roots in pre-existing system setup up before the totally authoritarian ones took over. For Germany, Imperial Germany + the Weimar Republic (both flawed democracies, but still, democracies) and for the USSR, Imperial Russia, which ok, might have not have been democratic in any modern sense, but was pretty liberal from a scientific and artistic point of view. Way more so than the USSR. If anything, both the Nazis and Soviets drained their scientific communities so much that by the end of the regimes they almost destroyed them.
  • icebraining 7y ago
    I don't see the drainage; 70 years after the October revolution, the USSR was still being first on important space exploration milestones, including the first permanently manned space station, in 1986. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program#Notable_firsts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program#Notable_f...
    • oblio 7y ago
      That came later. The USSR drained everything else to keep the space program and the military at a high level until it fell. Once it fell, I'm pretty sure most of those researchers ran wherever they could, as fast as they could.
      • _iyig 7y ago
        Yes, but that’s entirely my point. So long as they and their families were taken care of, most stuck around (though certainly some of that was due to fear).
      • AstralStorm 7y ago
        Not really. They got priority but not exactly at the expense of other fields. There was a lot of agricultural and biological sciences done, even electronics and civilian computer science too. And obviously mathematics. You probably haven't heard enough of it because Russian science was not named after Russian scientists too often in English. Heck, even some cars were quite cutting edge for the day until the catastrophes hit real hard. Though the infrastructure was really bad. Nothing really was drained for advanced projects, not even coffers. What happened was tragic mismanagement of agriculture, part manufacturing and building industry. This resulted in serious shortages all around and many deaths to famine. Only at the end did innovation slow down, due to above factors and social unrest.
    • thebooktocome 7y ago
      Try any scientific field other than aerospace, physics, or mathematics. Soviet biology was utterly destroyed by an ideological commitment to Lysenkoism.
    • sametmax 7y ago
      It's only a tiny, tiny part of science in a country. Ussr had nowhere close to the growth china as, even when recalibrating to the population size. The ussr economy was dying, with no innovation and no production outside of the war effort.
      • cat199 7y ago
        Not a field expert, but I'm fairly sure that China's vast economic growth is due largely to trade normalization with democratic countries in the last 20 years or so that happened after the fall of the USSR. Both were subject to the 'dont trade with communists' policy during the time they both existed..
        • oblio 7y ago
          China actually turned the ship around thanks to Deng Xiaoping. It wasn't just trade normalization, it was also their adoption of many free market practices that allowed them to be competitive. Compare and contrast with Russia.
          • AstralStorm 7y ago
            Funny enough Russia is even more capitalist than China. However, its capitalism is focused on resources and agriculture (esp. fishing) sector and not manufacturing (except weapons where they excel) - and keeps quite a bit of EU in stranglehold.
          • cat199 7y ago
            Hmm. interesting. But wasn't this the same time as glasnost/perestroika? And again, this doesn't happen in a vacuum.. Was non-communist policy (e.g the west) more favorable to china than russia?
      • AstralStorm 7y ago
        Economy was dying but not for lack of innovation. Mostly because certain very poor agricultural decisions caused repeated famines and further social unrest. Other than that it is telling that USSR was essentially a close second to USA for most of its existence, sometimes even at the forefront. The problem was management in the lower base levels like building industry, especially agriculture and some low level factory work, like parts or pieces. R&D and military industry was excellent.
    • magduf 7y ago
      I think the drainage was a lot worse on the Nazi side. The Nazis took their country's resources and started a big war, invading Poland and much of Europe, and then (what ultimately destroyed them) Russia. The USSR never committed so many resources to war; they engaged in the "cold war", but that was really about it. Germany was fighting an active war on two fronts and got crushed in the middle. The Soviets just built a bunch of bombs and walls (after the action in WWII).
  • knolax 7y ago
    > USSR, Imperial Russia, which ok, might have not have been democratic in any modern sense That's a massive understatement. The Russian Empire abolished serfdom in 1861[0]. There's no way that the Soviet space program was an extension of institutions from a society that was literally feudal a generation before the revolution. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_reform_of_1861 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_reform_of_1861
    • cat199 7y ago
      While i agree that much of the technological progress happened under soviet times, USA also abolished slavery in the 1860s, so this is not a very good data point for comparison.. one could make the argument that most 'western' (in a loose sense) technological progress beyond initial industrialization happened from WW1+ ... which would imply different things for different places
    • oblio 7y ago
      Russia was abolishing serfdom and discovering the periodic table at about the same time. History isn't fully linear.
• sametmax 7y ago
  And yet einstein went to the US and give them the bomb. During the cold war, little progress has been made engeenering that were not benefiting the wzr effort. Source: my last gf was born on the other side of the wall.