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What do you mean 'anti-woman'? Do they say that we should get rid of woman and have an all male society or to strangle girl babies? Just curious since the phras

What do you mean 'anti-woman'? Do they say that we should get rid of woman and have an all male society or to strangle girl babies? Just curious since the phrase 'anti-woman' and 'misogynistic' seems to be loosely thrown around these days as a synonym for 'something more or less loosely related to the subject of women that I don't like'.

projektfu 7y ago
I read it as meaning that women are expected by a “western” culture to sacrifice their happiness or sanity and the GP disagrees, saying that parental happiness is associated with infant happiness.
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  If their happiness depends on drinking alcohol and eating raw cheese, that is. Not all cheese is raw milk based, so you don't even have to give up cheese completely.
ACow_Adonis 7y ago
I mean they implicitly/explicitly give an image of child rearing that is neither factual, nor often physically possible: I joked that if we actually did everything that was recommended, we'd have no income, have no activities, and still fill all 36 hours in a day. I call it anti-woman because the implicit philosophy underlying the advice is to view the woman as a failure, because she must inevitably break some of the rules and parenting is framed in a 'how far are you from a mythical optimal', even though this optimal is rarely empirically measured, stated or demonstrated, and often assumes an implicit (read diminutive and insulting) view of womanhood/motherhood roughly analogous to domestic housekeeper willing to sacrifice everything. lastly, it downplays the validity of the woman's own desires, and the utility of her experiences, skills, hobbies, feelings, desires into a cult of 'physical and emotional devotion to the child'. The number of women at our parent group and that we've met on our short journey undergoing sleep deprivation and psychological issues, calling out for help, was eye opening to me, especially because from my own perspective from the data point of view was simply 'empirically that's barely an issue, if its causing your family that much distress, just change and do this instead', whereas there is an undercurrent in parenting that says a mother's role is to suffer...
- dragonsky67 7y ago
  Our experience back in 2000 was of be breast police forcing my Wife to feed a sleeping 4 hour old baby, telling her that if she didn't feed it it the baby would die then standing over her and telling her that everything she was doing was wrong. Not a good start. This is after a 36 hour labour and I'd run away home for some sleep. This was our first baby so everything was new and unfortunately everything in the hospital was high pressure with an undercurrent of "why don't you know how to do this?". After a few days we managed to escape the hospital. Once we were home the pace slowed down and amazingly enough we started to discover what made this little fella tick. Feeding was still a lot of pain and tears, so we finally in desperation purchased some bottles and formula. Was amazing how much of a difference taking the stress of feeding away was. The baby was happy, the mother was happy, I was happy and we never looked back. He's now a healthy 6 foot 18yr old working his first job. It was amazing how much of a different reception we got on subsequent babies. The midwifes tended to just leave us to it. In both subsequent times we managed to get out of the hospital within 24 hours of the birth, allowing us to get to know the new member of the family without everybody trying to tell us how to do it.
lubujackson 7y ago
I agree with the anti-woman sentiment as a father, and I will give you a few examples. As soon as a woman is pregnant, there are countless things off the table: no cheese, no caffiene, no wine or drinking of any kind, no deli meats, no sushi, etc. Some of those are nebulous and out of date - deli meat and cheese in particular. They are recommended to be avoided because of listeria risks, but how often have you heard of listeria outbreaks in cheese or deli meat? This was more common in the 50s when standards were lower. Now I see listeria outbreaks more often in packaged salads that are processed en masse. But the restrictions never go away, just added. The reigning idea is "why risk it"? This applies to almost everything from day one of pregnancy through childhood. Pregnant women are told to avoid countless things (including most medication) and heavily modify their behavior (avoid milk, tomatoes, grains etc.) for infinitesimal or non-existent benefits. When you dig into the source of the advice, most of the time it comes from the fact running studies on pregnant women is very litigious so drug companies simply recommend "avoid" and wash their hands of the problem. Other countries have very different guidelines and procedures. that's just the tip of the iceberg in the U.S. The entire birthing experience is built around saving the baby and the mother is an afterthought. This is shown in statistics where the death rate rate of mothers is higher than in many 3rd world countries. We keep finding more ways to keep babies alive (healthy or not) and force babies to be born (wanted or not). Very little thought is given to the holistic and human goal of the entire enterprise of having children and that is extremely damaging for not just mothers but fathers and the extended family and communities in general.
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  I don't think there is a law against eating cheese while pregnant, though. Not even drinking alcohol seems to be illegal? Everybody is free to google and make up their own mind. Not sure about the listeria, btw, if the risk is simply higher for embryos, or if the concern really is a general listeria infection like any adult could get? Maybe you don't hear a lot about listeria infections because for non-pregnant people it is not a big deal that would be newsworthy? Depending on the parents, even small risks to the unborn may be deemed unacceptable. Like a three in thousand risk of miscarriage? I've seen many doctors recommend a blood test with those risks, and many parents deciding against it because of the high risk. To me personally, a risk of 1:1000 of dying would seem rather extreme, too. I guess it depends on how you think about unborn life.

projektfu 7y ago

I read it as meaning that women are expected by a “western” culture to sacrifice their happiness or sanity and the GP disagrees, saying that parental happiness is associated with infant happiness.

bubblewrap 7y ago
If their happiness depends on drinking alcohol and eating raw cheese, that is. Not all cheese is raw milk based, so you don't even have to give up cheese completely.

ACow_Adonis 7y ago

I mean they implicitly/explicitly give an image of child rearing that is neither factual, nor often physically possible: I joked that if we actually did everything that was recommended, we'd have no income, have no activities, and still fill all 36 hours in a day. I call it anti-woman because the implicit philosophy underlying the advice is to view the woman as a failure, because she must inevitably break some of the rules and parenting is framed in a 'how far are you from a mythical optimal', even though this optimal is rarely empirically measured, stated or demonstrated, and often assumes an implicit (read diminutive and insulting) view of womanhood/motherhood roughly analogous to domestic housekeeper willing to sacrifice everything. lastly, it downplays the validity of the woman's own desires, and the utility of her experiences, skills, hobbies, feelings, desires into a cult of 'physical and emotional devotion to the child'. The number of women at our parent group and that we've met on our short journey undergoing sleep deprivation and psychological issues, calling out for help, was eye opening to me, especially because from my own perspective from the data point of view was simply 'empirically that's barely an issue, if its causing your family that much distress, just change and do this instead', whereas there is an undercurrent in parenting that says a mother's role is to suffer...

dragonsky67 7y ago
Our experience back in 2000 was of be breast police forcing my Wife to feed a sleeping 4 hour old baby, telling her that if she didn't feed it it the baby would die then standing over her and telling her that everything she was doing was wrong. Not a good start. This is after a 36 hour labour and I'd run away home for some sleep. This was our first baby so everything was new and unfortunately everything in the hospital was high pressure with an undercurrent of "why don't you know how to do this?". After a few days we managed to escape the hospital. Once we were home the pace slowed down and amazingly enough we started to discover what made this little fella tick. Feeding was still a lot of pain and tears, so we finally in desperation purchased some bottles and formula. Was amazing how much of a difference taking the stress of feeding away was. The baby was happy, the mother was happy, I was happy and we never looked back. He's now a healthy 6 foot 18yr old working his first job. It was amazing how much of a different reception we got on subsequent babies. The midwifes tended to just leave us to it. In both subsequent times we managed to get out of the hospital within 24 hours of the birth, allowing us to get to know the new member of the family without everybody trying to tell us how to do it.

lubujackson 7y ago

I agree with the anti-woman sentiment as a father, and I will give you a few examples. As soon as a woman is pregnant, there are countless things off the table: no cheese, no caffiene, no wine or drinking of any kind, no deli meats, no sushi, etc. Some of those are nebulous and out of date - deli meat and cheese in particular. They are recommended to be avoided because of listeria risks, but how often have you heard of listeria outbreaks in cheese or deli meat? This was more common in the 50s when standards were lower. Now I see listeria outbreaks more often in packaged salads that are processed en masse. But the restrictions never go away, just added. The reigning idea is "why risk it"? This applies to almost everything from day one of pregnancy through childhood. Pregnant women are told to avoid countless things (including most medication) and heavily modify their behavior (avoid milk, tomatoes, grains etc.) for infinitesimal or non-existent benefits. When you dig into the source of the advice, most of the time it comes from the fact running studies on pregnant women is very litigious so drug companies simply recommend "avoid" and wash their hands of the problem. Other countries have very different guidelines and procedures. that's just the tip of the iceberg in the U.S. The entire birthing experience is built around saving the baby and the mother is an afterthought. This is shown in statistics where the death rate rate of mothers is higher than in many 3rd world countries. We keep finding more ways to keep babies alive (healthy or not) and force babies to be born (wanted or not). Very little thought is given to the holistic and human goal of the entire enterprise of having children and that is extremely damaging for not just mothers but fathers and the extended family and communities in general.

bubblewrap 7y ago
I don't think there is a law against eating cheese while pregnant, though. Not even drinking alcohol seems to be illegal? Everybody is free to google and make up their own mind. Not sure about the listeria, btw, if the risk is simply higher for embryos, or if the concern really is a general listeria infection like any adult could get? Maybe you don't hear a lot about listeria infections because for non-pregnant people it is not a big deal that would be newsworthy? Depending on the parents, even small risks to the unborn may be deemed unacceptable. Like a three in thousand risk of miscarriage? I've seen many doctors recommend a blood test with those risks, and many parents deciding against it because of the high risk. To me personally, a risk of 1:1000 of dying would seem rather extreme, too. I guess it depends on how you think about unborn life.