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That fails to respond to the point that there exists skilled necessary work that armies of unskilled workers can not replace.

petra 7y ago
Value, for people, isn't necessarily dependent on scarcity. A good hamburger is valueable, to me. And this doesn't change depending on how hard or how easy it was to make that meal.
Avshalom 7y ago
And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace. But even beyond that there's armies of skilled necessary work that skilled workers can not replace either but seem to forget exist. Apple doesn't exist without massive sophisticated logistical support but no one ever points out that the naval architects at Maersk or the welders at their shipyards are one piece of the process that allows any one to actually buy anything from Apple.
- pm90 7y ago
  This is a very good comment. Some people like to do more repeatable tasks while others like to do more creative tasks and others don't want to do any tasks at all. We are told that one is better or more required than the other. If we can make a society where people can do what they want to while continuing to have a decent life (whatever "decent" means), its all good.
- dahfizz 7y ago
  > And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace. I think this is false. Unskilled work is easy to teach and learn, by definition. All you need is an "army" and the unskilled work can be easily fulfilled.
  - Avshalom 7y ago
    Well then it'd be an army of unskilled labor wouldn't it.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      Yes, but the point was that one side could learn to do the other side's job, but not the other way around.
      - Avshalom 7y ago
        Only if you take as given that people doing unskilled labor are to a one doing it because they are incapable of anything else.
        DuskStar 7y ago
        The dichotomy doesn't have to be perfect to be useful. There are certainly people who are incapable of anything else - and the US military has also pretty consistent in their statements that there are many people who are incapable of anything useful (in the military).
        dahfizz 7y ago
        Nobody is arguing that unskilled laborers are incapable. We are saying that they are by definition unskilled. These skills are slow to teach and learn. Having lots of people willing to perform skilled jobs is not enough - they need the skills. The same is not true about unskilled work. Hence the comment about armies of people being able to perform unskilled labor.
        gnarlee 7y ago
        I just like physical labor. I could be in some open floor plan trying to write code in some langulag designed by an unsophisticated person over the weekend while interupted by slack nonsense and by a manager who cant tie his own shoes. One coworker is an accountant and annother is an industrial designer. Im incredibly fit and my brain is reserved for private use only.
  - ionised 7y ago
    I'm thinking you haven't done much 'unskilled labour'.
  - Frondo 7y ago
    Much, if not most, of "unskilled" work also has a lot of hidden complexity that means your productivity starts off slow and improves over time. There's a reason capitalists have gotten us to think of some work as "unskilled," and that's so they can pay those people far less than they should be, and no one raises a stink about it. The farm worker is an obvious example of "unskilled" labor, but if you watch a video of what these people do minute by minute, hour after hour, for the entire harvest, they are absolutely being underpaid by criminal amounts. Yet, because we've been convinced it's "unskilled" labor, hardly anyone cares.
    - Bakary 7y ago
      Unless you hold some capital, you are paid according to how much your work is valued and how much of it can be supplied, not how hard your work is. They are unskilled in the sense that many other people can perform their job after some training. In aggregate the work of farming is highly valuable, but many individuals who partake in such work aren't specifically so and can be replaced easily even if their work is in fact difficult in itself. An established rapper could be paid millions for a single mumbled line on a single song but that happens because he can export his value to millions of people who have in interest in it, whereas the ditch-digger can only rely on his labor and what it can provide in his current location. You say hardly anyone cares, but are you willing to pay extra for the items and services that are produced by farmers and other workers? Perhaps you are, but in reality that is the stopping block that makes people stop caring, and it does have a certain cold logic to it.
      - gnarlee 7y ago
        Haha, you've nicely described how things work but didnt provide any sane justification for it. But ok, ill play along. How much extra are we talking about? I've just cleaned trains for about 50 000 travelers with 4 people. In my previous job we bake half a million boxes of cookies with 8 people. Farmers however, they feed truly insane numbers. If we charge you 1 cent extra for things you wouldnt complaint about it. Lets see, that would be 50000 cent extra, 500 euro split 4 was. Shit, that would double my salary! But dont worry about it. I get that you are just that cheap. (Joking)
- kjsbfkjbf 7y ago
  It would also be nice to frame "necessary" and "unnecessary". I would think developments like saving the environment, healthcare research, improving public transportation, energy consumption, etc. are all "necessary" work. Building Uber or Twitter or Facebook? I'd lean more towards "unnecessary". HackerNews is so close to arriving at the conclusion that most jobs (including their own prized "skilled" engineering) are worthless outside of capital accumulation. :)
ionised 7y ago
If you're talking about software development, it's not hard to learn. You can teach someone unskilled to be a developer in around 6-12 months. Within a year or two they will be working unsupervised to a professional level. You don't need university for it. You don't need a degree. Anyone can learn it. It's not magic, it just takes time.

petra 7y ago

Value, for people, isn't necessarily dependent on scarcity. A good hamburger is valueable, to me. And this doesn't change depending on how hard or how easy it was to make that meal.

Avshalom 7y ago

And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace. But even beyond that there's armies of skilled necessary work that skilled workers can not replace either but seem to forget exist. Apple doesn't exist without massive sophisticated logistical support but no one ever points out that the naval architects at Maersk or the welders at their shipyards are one piece of the process that allows any one to actually buy anything from Apple.

pm90 7y ago
This is a very good comment. Some people like to do more repeatable tasks while others like to do more creative tasks and others don't want to do any tasks at all. We are told that one is better or more required than the other. If we can make a society where people can do what they want to while continuing to have a decent life (whatever "decent" means), its all good.
dahfizz 7y ago
> And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace. I think this is false. Unskilled work is easy to teach and learn, by definition. All you need is an "army" and the unskilled work can be easily fulfilled.
- Avshalom 7y ago
  Well then it'd be an army of unskilled labor wouldn't it.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    Yes, but the point was that one side could learn to do the other side's job, but not the other way around.
    - Avshalom 7y ago
      Only if you take as given that people doing unskilled labor are to a one doing it because they are incapable of anything else.
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        The dichotomy doesn't have to be perfect to be useful. There are certainly people who are incapable of anything else - and the US military has also pretty consistent in their statements that there are many people who are incapable of anything useful (in the military).
      - dahfizz 7y ago
        Nobody is arguing that unskilled laborers are incapable. We are saying that they are by definition unskilled. These skills are slow to teach and learn. Having lots of people willing to perform skilled jobs is not enough - they need the skills. The same is not true about unskilled work. Hence the comment about armies of people being able to perform unskilled labor.
        gnarlee 7y ago
        I just like physical labor. I could be in some open floor plan trying to write code in some langulag designed by an unsophisticated person over the weekend while interupted by slack nonsense and by a manager who cant tie his own shoes. One coworker is an accountant and annother is an industrial designer. Im incredibly fit and my brain is reserved for private use only.
- ionised 7y ago
  I'm thinking you haven't done much 'unskilled labour'.
- Frondo 7y ago
  Much, if not most, of "unskilled" work also has a lot of hidden complexity that means your productivity starts off slow and improves over time. There's a reason capitalists have gotten us to think of some work as "unskilled," and that's so they can pay those people far less than they should be, and no one raises a stink about it. The farm worker is an obvious example of "unskilled" labor, but if you watch a video of what these people do minute by minute, hour after hour, for the entire harvest, they are absolutely being underpaid by criminal amounts. Yet, because we've been convinced it's "unskilled" labor, hardly anyone cares.
  - Bakary 7y ago
    Unless you hold some capital, you are paid according to how much your work is valued and how much of it can be supplied, not how hard your work is. They are unskilled in the sense that many other people can perform their job after some training. In aggregate the work of farming is highly valuable, but many individuals who partake in such work aren't specifically so and can be replaced easily even if their work is in fact difficult in itself. An established rapper could be paid millions for a single mumbled line on a single song but that happens because he can export his value to millions of people who have in interest in it, whereas the ditch-digger can only rely on his labor and what it can provide in his current location. You say hardly anyone cares, but are you willing to pay extra for the items and services that are produced by farmers and other workers? Perhaps you are, but in reality that is the stopping block that makes people stop caring, and it does have a certain cold logic to it.
    - gnarlee 7y ago
      Haha, you've nicely described how things work but didnt provide any sane justification for it. But ok, ill play along. How much extra are we talking about? I've just cleaned trains for about 50 000 travelers with 4 people. In my previous job we bake half a million boxes of cookies with 8 people. Farmers however, they feed truly insane numbers. If we charge you 1 cent extra for things you wouldnt complaint about it. Lets see, that would be 50000 cent extra, 500 euro split 4 was. Shit, that would double my salary! But dont worry about it. I get that you are just that cheap. (Joking)
kjsbfkjbf 7y ago
It would also be nice to frame "necessary" and "unnecessary". I would think developments like saving the environment, healthcare research, improving public transportation, energy consumption, etc. are all "necessary" work. Building Uber or Twitter or Facebook? I'd lean more towards "unnecessary". HackerNews is so close to arriving at the conclusion that most jobs (including their own prized "skilled" engineering) are worthless outside of capital accumulation. :)

ionised 7y ago

If you're talking about software development, it's not hard to learn. You can teach someone unskilled to be a developer in around 6-12 months. Within a year or two they will be working unsupervised to a professional level. You don't need university for it. You don't need a degree. Anyone can learn it. It's not magic, it just takes time.