4 ms·

How can US citizens fight this? It's not unconstitutional, since non-citizens aren't covered by the Bill of Rights. Do we just hope & pray that the next admin

How can US citizens fight this? It's not unconstitutional, since non-citizens aren't covered by the Bill of Rights. Do we just hope & pray that the next administration is gracious enough to revert a policy decision that has no negative impact on themselves or their constituents?

roywiggins 7y ago
That's not quite right, the bill of rights applies to everyone with a foot on American soil, not just citizens.
- alistairSH 7y ago
  Except within the 100 mile border zone, where some (but not all) of the Bill or Rights doesn't apply (or applies less strictly).
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    The border search exception means that certain searches are assumed to be "reasonable" that wouldn't be otherwise. Exactly what searches are reasonable and when has always been a bit in flux. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception Brief stops for questioning at a fixed post on a highway are legal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuerte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuer... But it seems you can't actually physically search vehicles, unless something has since modified this precedent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ortiz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ortiz
- ap3 7y ago
  This is a requirement for a visa application- how many people applying for a US visa are on American soil?
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    Quite a few I should think, people do change their visa status, renew visas, swap between different types of visas depending on their work/student/marital status.
    - pandaman 7y ago
      Visas and statuses are different things. Visa is essentially an approval of an application for a status. You get it from a US consulate. There are no US consulates on the US soil. Your status is granted (or denied) by a border agent, based on your visa, when you cross into the country. Changing one can be done on the US soil and the process does not require a visa. But if you want a visa stamp for a new status then you have to visit a US consulate and that requires leaving the US.
droithomme 7y ago
> since non-citizens aren't covered by the Bill of Rights That is a common misperception. Most of the Bill of Rights applies to "persons", which includes non-citizens and even undocumented aliens. However, it doesn't apply to people not under the jurisdiction of the US, such as foreign nationals overseas. When someone applies for a visa from overseas they don't have these rights. Likewise those still outside US territory who are presenting themselves at a border seeking entrance. Once on US soil, Constitutional protections generally apply.
- ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
  I've always found it odd that if we were invaded, the current 'interpretation' (because I find it really hard to believe this was the intention when it was written) would have rights extended to them. It seems incredibly obvious to me that the law, at the very least, should have a clause for being here legally.
  - simplicio 7y ago
    It applies to all people "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US. Members of an invading army obviously don't qualify, even if they were on US soil. when the US captured Japanese soldier occupy the Alutian islands, they were kept as POWs, not charged with "illegal invasion" or whatever.
    - roywiggins 7y ago
      Under international law, they have to be treated this way and not charged with crimes. As long as a soldier is acting under the laws of war, they can't be tried for violations of ordinary criminal law. They can only be held for the duration of hostilities and then must be returned to their home country. So they really aren't subject to domestic law at all.
  - buckminster 7y ago
    So which articles of the bill of rights do you think shouldn't apply to illegal aliens? Note that the one concerning fair trials and so on explicitly states that it doesn't apply in times of war.
ajross 7y ago
> non-citizens aren't covered by the Bill of Rights. That's not correct, and two centuries of case law agrees with the plain language of the constitution: no State shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".

roywiggins 7y ago

That's not quite right, the bill of rights applies to everyone with a foot on American soil, not just citizens.

alistairSH 7y ago
Except within the 100 mile border zone, where some (but not all) of the Bill or Rights doesn't apply (or applies less strictly).
- roywiggins 7y ago
  The border search exception means that certain searches are assumed to be "reasonable" that wouldn't be otherwise. Exactly what searches are reasonable and when has always been a bit in flux. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception Brief stops for questioning at a fixed post on a highway are legal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuerte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuer... But it seems you can't actually physically search vehicles, unless something has since modified this precedent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ortiz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ortiz
ap3 7y ago
This is a requirement for a visa application- how many people applying for a US visa are on American soil?
- roywiggins 7y ago
  Quite a few I should think, people do change their visa status, renew visas, swap between different types of visas depending on their work/student/marital status.
  - pandaman 7y ago
    Visas and statuses are different things. Visa is essentially an approval of an application for a status. You get it from a US consulate. There are no US consulates on the US soil. Your status is granted (or denied) by a border agent, based on your visa, when you cross into the country. Changing one can be done on the US soil and the process does not require a visa. But if you want a visa stamp for a new status then you have to visit a US consulate and that requires leaving the US.

droithomme 7y ago

> since non-citizens aren't covered by the Bill of Rights That is a common misperception. Most of the Bill of Rights applies to "persons", which includes non-citizens and even undocumented aliens. However, it doesn't apply to people not under the jurisdiction of the US, such as foreign nationals overseas. When someone applies for a visa from overseas they don't have these rights. Likewise those still outside US territory who are presenting themselves at a border seeking entrance. Once on US soil, Constitutional protections generally apply.

ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
I've always found it odd that if we were invaded, the current 'interpretation' (because I find it really hard to believe this was the intention when it was written) would have rights extended to them. It seems incredibly obvious to me that the law, at the very least, should have a clause for being here legally.
- simplicio 7y ago
  It applies to all people "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US. Members of an invading army obviously don't qualify, even if they were on US soil. when the US captured Japanese soldier occupy the Alutian islands, they were kept as POWs, not charged with "illegal invasion" or whatever.
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    Under international law, they have to be treated this way and not charged with crimes. As long as a soldier is acting under the laws of war, they can't be tried for violations of ordinary criminal law. They can only be held for the duration of hostilities and then must be returned to their home country. So they really aren't subject to domestic law at all.
- buckminster 7y ago
  So which articles of the bill of rights do you think shouldn't apply to illegal aliens? Note that the one concerning fair trials and so on explicitly states that it doesn't apply in times of war.

ajross 7y ago

> non-citizens aren't covered by the Bill of Rights. That's not correct, and two centuries of case law agrees with the plain language of the constitution: no State shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".