5 ms·

How much would all this cost in 2019? I'm wondering because I see many more people turn towards solar panels, or alternatively windmills. First time I see a hyd

by mtw 7y ago

How much would all this cost in 2019? I'm wondering because I see many more people turn towards solar panels, or alternatively windmills. First time I see a hydro plant of this size.

acomjean 7y ago
I’m not sure how cost effective it is. Most people don’t have a stream they can divert to run power. I’m not sure if the legality of stream diversion for personal use in many jusristrictions, and they seemed to divert a long way.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  In Europe there are a lot of small streams that used to house mills before electricity made those redundant. Most of the earth work is alread done, you would just have to change it from a stretch of fast-flowing water to power a mill wheel to a small drop to power a turbine, and add the turbine and electronics. In some places there might even be ancient still-valid permits you could aquire if you buy the original mill. I would expect a lot of red tape, but depending on local jurisdiction that might be very doable in Europe if you're willing to buy the right place for it.
  - martin_a 7y ago
    As you mentioned, this is possible but often followed by lots of regulatory things. I had a look into it for Germany and the easiest way is to buy an old mill and retrofit new technology for power generation. On the other hand, older mills are often covered by the protection of historical monuments and can therefore not be altered as you like. This should really be looked into before buying anything as it will be an absolute showstopper with no way around it. And if you try to do what the guy here did you'll most likely run into water way authorities with requirements for fish ladders and so on. It's doable but it's not as easy as laying some pipe through your garden.
    - londons_explore 7y ago
      On a stream this size, even if it is technically illegal, there is no way the government is going to find out about it
      - zaarn 7y ago
        You'd be surprised how much work goes to protecting the environment in germany. Or protecting environment regulations. And the communes take the state of their waters very seriously as well. You'd likely also upset various environmental groups due to a lot of protected species living around.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Your typical height difference in those locations are better suited to applications that use torque rather than pressure. And that's how they were used in the past, to directly turn paddle wheels or bucket wheels to power mechanical activity, not to run generators for electrical power. You might be able to create a neat conversion though, make an old style wheel and then gear up inside the building. But cost wise that would most likely be a complete loss compared to the electricity it would produce, and those wheels are high maintenance.
benj111 7y ago
Its more expensive than solar or wind, but cheaper than those + storage. Which is a legitimate comparison as its more reliable than those, and possibly dispatchable. From a UK perspective theres quite a lot of paperwork. You have to get surveys for flow rate over the year, and theres limits to how much you can divert. Both those combine to mean that it isn't really worth it unless you're off grid, and in the right location, with enough land, and water.
sathackr 7y ago
He said somewhere else on the site that because of the location he may only get 3 hours of sun in a day and sometimes months with no(I assume direct) sun in the winter. So solar wasn't an option here though likely would have been cheaper and definitely easier.
jacquesm 7y ago
It's all about head x volume, if you don't have site suitable then you can simply forget about it. Very few pieces of land that you can own privately will have enough height difference and enough volume of water running through it that you can pull this off. Besides the legality of it, in Northern Ontario, the land I had there had a fair sized creek running through it but over the 400 meters that the creek intersected the property the height difference was only about a meter and a half. You'd have to do major engineering to make usable power from that, the cost of the tubing and the turbine might be just low enough that it would compare favorably with a windmill. It definitely is a great way to make power though, as long as the creek does not freeze (and as long as your precious tubing and Pelton wheel don't freeze) they'll make continuous power and that is really neat.
dmix 7y ago
The author mentions solar in a later post: > Another restriction is that there is no power at this place. Bringing power here would require a 350 meter long transmission line through dense forest, or else installing a solar panel, battery and regulator. Due to the low head available between the intake dam and the forebay, a picohydro system to provide some power is hardly feasible. Solar power is quite restricted too, because the place is in a deep valley and gets only about 3 hours of sun a day. Furthermore, in winter there is often no sunny day for a full month! So panels would have to be dimensioned to run on diffuse light from the clouds, and that needs big panels to produce only a little bit of power.
- ricardobeat 7y ago
  I remember hearing this is a (common) misconception, and that solar panels will still be at somewhere around 50% efficiency even under heavy clouds. Maybe they weren't as efficient yet back in 2009.
  - dmix 7y ago
    That solar quote was from a follow post from 2014: https://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/intake.html https://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/intake.html
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    My panels disagree. On a direct-sun day, they generate 4 kilowatts, but under heavy cloud I'm lucky to get 500w

by mtw 7y ago

How much would all this cost in 2019? I'm wondering because I see many more people turn towards solar panels, or alternatively windmills. First time I see a hydro plant of this size.

acomjean 7y ago

I’m not sure how cost effective it is. Most people don’t have a stream they can divert to run power. I’m not sure if the legality of stream diversion for personal use in many jusristrictions, and they seemed to divert a long way.

wongarsu 7y ago
In Europe there are a lot of small streams that used to house mills before electricity made those redundant. Most of the earth work is alread done, you would just have to change it from a stretch of fast-flowing water to power a mill wheel to a small drop to power a turbine, and add the turbine and electronics. In some places there might even be ancient still-valid permits you could aquire if you buy the original mill. I would expect a lot of red tape, but depending on local jurisdiction that might be very doable in Europe if you're willing to buy the right place for it.
- martin_a 7y ago
  As you mentioned, this is possible but often followed by lots of regulatory things. I had a look into it for Germany and the easiest way is to buy an old mill and retrofit new technology for power generation. On the other hand, older mills are often covered by the protection of historical monuments and can therefore not be altered as you like. This should really be looked into before buying anything as it will be an absolute showstopper with no way around it. And if you try to do what the guy here did you'll most likely run into water way authorities with requirements for fish ladders and so on. It's doable but it's not as easy as laying some pipe through your garden.
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    On a stream this size, even if it is technically illegal, there is no way the government is going to find out about it
    - zaarn 7y ago
      You'd be surprised how much work goes to protecting the environment in germany. Or protecting environment regulations. And the communes take the state of their waters very seriously as well. You'd likely also upset various environmental groups due to a lot of protected species living around.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Your typical height difference in those locations are better suited to applications that use torque rather than pressure. And that's how they were used in the past, to directly turn paddle wheels or bucket wheels to power mechanical activity, not to run generators for electrical power. You might be able to create a neat conversion though, make an old style wheel and then gear up inside the building. But cost wise that would most likely be a complete loss compared to the electricity it would produce, and those wheels are high maintenance.

benj111 7y ago

Its more expensive than solar or wind, but cheaper than those + storage. Which is a legitimate comparison as its more reliable than those, and possibly dispatchable. From a UK perspective theres quite a lot of paperwork. You have to get surveys for flow rate over the year, and theres limits to how much you can divert. Both those combine to mean that it isn't really worth it unless you're off grid, and in the right location, with enough land, and water.

sathackr 7y ago

He said somewhere else on the site that because of the location he may only get 3 hours of sun in a day and sometimes months with no(I assume direct) sun in the winter. So solar wasn't an option here though likely would have been cheaper and definitely easier.

jacquesm 7y ago

It's all about head x volume, if you don't have site suitable then you can simply forget about it. Very few pieces of land that you can own privately will have enough height difference and enough volume of water running through it that you can pull this off. Besides the legality of it, in Northern Ontario, the land I had there had a fair sized creek running through it but over the 400 meters that the creek intersected the property the height difference was only about a meter and a half. You'd have to do major engineering to make usable power from that, the cost of the tubing and the turbine might be just low enough that it would compare favorably with a windmill. It definitely is a great way to make power though, as long as the creek does not freeze (and as long as your precious tubing and Pelton wheel don't freeze) they'll make continuous power and that is really neat.

dmix 7y ago

The author mentions solar in a later post: > Another restriction is that there is no power at this place. Bringing power here would require a 350 meter long transmission line through dense forest, or else installing a solar panel, battery and regulator. Due to the low head available between the intake dam and the forebay, a picohydro system to provide some power is hardly feasible. Solar power is quite restricted too, because the place is in a deep valley and gets only about 3 hours of sun a day. Furthermore, in winter there is often no sunny day for a full month! So panels would have to be dimensioned to run on diffuse light from the clouds, and that needs big panels to produce only a little bit of power.

ricardobeat 7y ago
I remember hearing this is a (common) misconception, and that solar panels will still be at somewhere around 50% efficiency even under heavy clouds. Maybe they weren't as efficient yet back in 2009.
- dmix 7y ago
  That solar quote was from a follow post from 2014: https://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/intake.html https://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/intake.html
- londons_explore 7y ago
  My panels disagree. On a direct-sun day, they generate 4 kilowatts, but under heavy cloud I'm lucky to get 500w