8 ms·

I posted this as a comment the other day in another Boeing and MCAS discussion. In my research into the topic the saddest bit of information I've seen is the i

I posted this as a comment the other day in another Boeing and MCAS discussion. In my research into the topic the saddest bit of information I've seen is the image of the black box data for the flight (the first crash): https://i.imgur.com/WJuhjlO.png https://i.imgur.com/WJuhjlO.png You can see from the graph that in the final minutes and seconds, the pilot put insane amounts of force on the control column (aka the yoke) to try to pull the plane out of the dive - to save the 189 people on board. But no, MCAS was overpowering and lacked the documentation for the pilot to try anything else. Also interesting to see is the amount of times the pilots bring the nose up, only for MCAS to kick in and force the nose back down. 26 times. All data from this Seattle Times article, which was written before the second crash occurred: [1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/black-box-data-reveals-lion-air-pilots-struggle-against-boeings-737-max-flight-control-system/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/black...

daodedickinson 7y ago
The SEC was given a complete explanation of Bernie Madoff's scam back in the 1990's.
bowmessage 7y ago
Interesting that there are two angle of attack sensor readings in the black box image when the major issue with MCAS seems to be that it was relying on only a single sensor?
- spockz 7y ago
  MCAS use(s/d) one sensor at a time, rotating which one is used.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Apart from at the start (when the plane is on the ground), both sensors seem to report the same data? So why did it crash?
sirsuki 7y ago
If the pilots were putting that much force on the yoke it is pretty apparent that the pilots really truly wanted the plan to do what they asked of it. I am curious what scenarios the designers of the plan drove then to not trust that the human in the seat really has no idea what they are doing. Was the ignoring the wishes of the pilot and attempt to prevent a crazed irresponsible and unlicensed idiot from doing something? These are trained humans why does the computer totally ignore there efforts?
- jacobush 7y ago
  You make it sound like the plane has some kind of agency. Though a plane is very complicated, the treacherous MCAS system is actually very simple.
  - tachi_coma 7y ago
    I'm looking at the graph and imagining the MCAS with a bubbling, gleeful voice, not unlike that of a Tachikoma discovering something new. [0] Oh boy! A game! I love games! Like a dog with a tennis ball in its mouth, thinking the game is tug-o-war and not fetch. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNY53tZ2geg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNY53tZ2geg During the final nose down, I can hear the Tachikoma triumphantly cheer, "I WIN!"
- 781 7y ago
  If it only were that simple. Airbus in particular has a lot of systems which PREVENT the human from doing things. One plane actually crashed because the prevention system disabled itself and the pilots believed it was still there to protect them from bad actions on their part: > caused the autopilot to disconnect, after which the crew reacted incorrectly and ultimately caused the aircraft to enter an aerodynamic stall, from which it did not recover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447
  - sago 7y ago
    It seems a bit rough that you're getting downvotes. [Edit: The parent was grey when I wrote this]. AF447 seems like a pretty important case study for figuring out where to put the balance of trust. Along with the very final stage of Aeroflot 593 (after the child had left the seat), also mentioned. There's a few more: Colgan Air 3407, AirAsia 8501, Korean 501, etc, where flight crew ignored or overrode systems. Which is not to deny that in the majority of cases the flight crew are the best judge of what is needed, just that one surely has to look critically and honestly at counter examples. There is of course also Germanwings 9525, though as the GP implies, systems protecting against malicious piloting will probably be counter-productive.
obituary_latte 7y ago
Direct link to image bypassing imgur’s awful interface: https://i.imgur.com/WJuhjlO_d.jpg?maxwidth=1640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high https://i.imgur.com/WJuhjlO_d.jpg?maxwidth=1640&shape=thumb&...
- isatty 7y ago
  Thank you, forcing everyone onto a landing and wasting loads of data just rendering the garbage page is the worst UX on the planet.
  - blinky1456 7y ago
    I disagree, It is a free image hosting platform for sharing images. There is nothing wrong with linking to it. If you upload or want to share what is on the platform, they would prefer if you link it that way, as is their right. It is a business after all. And If people want to hotlink directly to an image they should pay up and host it themselves.
    - Crosseye_Jack 7y ago
      I don’t disagree that if people want to be able to hot-link images they should pay for the hosting themselves (It’s something I do myself - instead of replying on imgur I just pay to host the files on S3). I just find it amusing that imgur was born out of being a better image host then the competition as linking to images on reddit at the time sucked, and now (IMO) has turned to “the dark side” and are doing the things that made the competition so crappy to start with. I’m not saying they shouldn’t show ads but I’ve seen and reported countless bad ads on the site (forced redirects away from the site, unannounced “would you like to open the App Store” dialogs. APKs just auto downloading. Seemed at the time they or their ad network would accept any old crap of an advert (this was a quite a while ago, hopefully they are more choosing about the ads they run). Also their UI is a pain in the arse (IMO) on mobile Safari it’s a pain in the arse to pinch and zoom (not that it will do any good as the image on mobile UI has been resized) and getting to the full sized image is another pain in the arse. For images like above it makes it impossible to read. They said look at the force applied but the wording on the scale is just a blur making the graph hard to understand. It’s their site and they can do what they like with it. I just find it amusing that (IMO) they have become what they hated. At least they managed to include reddit style communities/comments before reddit started hosting images themselves.

daodedickinson 7y ago

The SEC was given a complete explanation of Bernie Madoff's scam back in the 1990's.

bowmessage 7y ago

Interesting that there are two angle of attack sensor readings in the black box image when the major issue with MCAS seems to be that it was relying on only a single sensor?

spockz 7y ago
MCAS use(s/d) one sensor at a time, rotating which one is used.
londons_explore 7y ago
Apart from at the start (when the plane is on the ground), both sensors seem to report the same data? So why did it crash?

sirsuki 7y ago

If the pilots were putting that much force on the yoke it is pretty apparent that the pilots really truly wanted the plan to do what they asked of it. I am curious what scenarios the designers of the plan drove then to not trust that the human in the seat really has no idea what they are doing. Was the ignoring the wishes of the pilot and attempt to prevent a crazed irresponsible and unlicensed idiot from doing something? These are trained humans why does the computer totally ignore there efforts?

jacobush 7y ago
You make it sound like the plane has some kind of agency. Though a plane is very complicated, the treacherous MCAS system is actually very simple.
- tachi_coma 7y ago
  I'm looking at the graph and imagining the MCAS with a bubbling, gleeful voice, not unlike that of a Tachikoma discovering something new. [0] Oh boy! A game! I love games! Like a dog with a tennis ball in its mouth, thinking the game is tug-o-war and not fetch. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNY53tZ2geg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNY53tZ2geg During the final nose down, I can hear the Tachikoma triumphantly cheer, "I WIN!"
781 7y ago
If it only were that simple. Airbus in particular has a lot of systems which PREVENT the human from doing things. One plane actually crashed because the prevention system disabled itself and the pilots believed it was still there to protect them from bad actions on their part: > caused the autopilot to disconnect, after which the crew reacted incorrectly and ultimately caused the aircraft to enter an aerodynamic stall, from which it did not recover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447
- sago 7y ago
  It seems a bit rough that you're getting downvotes. [Edit: The parent was grey when I wrote this]. AF447 seems like a pretty important case study for figuring out where to put the balance of trust. Along with the very final stage of Aeroflot 593 (after the child had left the seat), also mentioned. There's a few more: Colgan Air 3407, AirAsia 8501, Korean 501, etc, where flight crew ignored or overrode systems. Which is not to deny that in the majority of cases the flight crew are the best judge of what is needed, just that one surely has to look critically and honestly at counter examples. There is of course also Germanwings 9525, though as the GP implies, systems protecting against malicious piloting will probably be counter-productive.

obituary_latte 7y ago

Direct link to image bypassing imgur’s awful interface: https://i.imgur.com/WJuhjlO_d.jpg?maxwidth=1640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high https://i.imgur.com/WJuhjlO_d.jpg?maxwidth=1640&shape=thumb&...

isatty 7y ago
Thank you, forcing everyone onto a landing and wasting loads of data just rendering the garbage page is the worst UX on the planet.
- blinky1456 7y ago
  I disagree, It is a free image hosting platform for sharing images. There is nothing wrong with linking to it. If you upload or want to share what is on the platform, they would prefer if you link it that way, as is their right. It is a business after all. And If people want to hotlink directly to an image they should pay up and host it themselves.
  - Crosseye_Jack 7y ago
    I don’t disagree that if people want to be able to hot-link images they should pay for the hosting themselves (It’s something I do myself - instead of replying on imgur I just pay to host the files on S3). I just find it amusing that imgur was born out of being a better image host then the competition as linking to images on reddit at the time sucked, and now (IMO) has turned to “the dark side” and are doing the things that made the competition so crappy to start with. I’m not saying they shouldn’t show ads but I’ve seen and reported countless bad ads on the site (forced redirects away from the site, unannounced “would you like to open the App Store” dialogs. APKs just auto downloading. Seemed at the time they or their ad network would accept any old crap of an advert (this was a quite a while ago, hopefully they are more choosing about the ads they run). Also their UI is a pain in the arse (IMO) on mobile Safari it’s a pain in the arse to pinch and zoom (not that it will do any good as the image on mobile UI has been resized) and getting to the full sized image is another pain in the arse. For images like above it makes it impossible to read. They said look at the force applied but the wording on the scale is just a blur making the graph hard to understand. It’s their site and they can do what they like with it. I just find it amusing that (IMO) they have become what they hated. At least they managed to include reddit style communities/comments before reddit started hosting images themselves.