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I personally find the Meditations (of which I’m not a fan) to seem almost like a Christian gospel with regard to its tone and teachings. It makes me think that

by afpx 7y ago

I personally find the Meditations (of which I’m not a fan) to seem almost like a Christian gospel with regard to its tone and teachings. It makes me think that either Aurelius was influenced by Christianity, or Christianity represented a belief system that was common in Rome at the time. From my readings of the origins of Christianity, I understand that Jesus was just one of many messianic type leaders with similar teachings that existed in the Roman Empire at that time. So, makes me believe it’s more toward the latter.

jasonhansel 7y ago
Christianity, especially in the first two centuries AD, was very heavily influenced by Stoic philosophy. (The Stoic influence declined somewhat after Augustine defeated the Pelagian heresy.) (For reference: Stoicism predated Christianity by around 300 years, and was quite entrenched by the time the Gospels were written.)
- asark 7y ago
  And everything was influenced by and influencing platonism at that time, so some of the connection may be via that.
  - jasonhansel 7y ago
    Indeed. Epictetus is famous for (mis)interpreting Plato to suit his own ends.
- afpx 7y ago
  And, both Christianity and Stoicism were influenced by Buddhism. (Buddhism was practiced in both the Greek and Roman worlds, and scholars note many similarities between the two.)
  - jasonhansel 7y ago
    This is dubious, but definitely not ridiculous. Buddhism was certainly known in parts of the Greco-Roman world, but there are significant differences between Buddhism and Stoicism, and there's no evidence of any direct intellectual connection. (Edit: one difference between the two is the Buddhist doctrine of "nonself", which contrasts with the Stoic view of the self as a part of universal Reason and a member of the kosmopolis.)
    - afpx 7y ago
      I am no expert; I only read a lot. But, my understanding is that early Christianity was a reaction away from Judaism. And, that the Old Testament was only added as part of the canon later. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity was must more similar to Buddhism with it’s hippy love message. But, yes, I’m sure that’s very controversial.
      - dorcos 7y ago
        Early Christianity is the fulfillment of 1st Century Judaism with Jesus Christ being revealed as the Messiah and King. Modern day Judaism, that is Rabbinic Judaism (which followed some time after the destruction of the 2nd Temple) denies Jesus as that expected Messiah and has an expectation of someone else that is to come. For Christians, The Old Testament and New Testament are very much coupled together. There's a lot of prophecies and typologies you can read about from the Old Testament that finds its fulfillment in Jesus and the New Testament (such as the suffering Messiah). I'd suggest C.S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity" (who was good friends and influenced to convert by J.R.R. Tolkien and G.K. Chesterton) to get a clearer picture of Christianity without the sugar coating we commonly get from the media today. Lewis brings up the Trilemma, which is unique only to the founder of Christianity.
        SomeOldThrow 7y ago
        It’s also worth explicitly noting that Christianity-as-a-Jewish movement and Christianity-as-non-Judaism took a couple centuries to shake out. I would also guess that, and there is decent evidence for, christianity at the time would have looked much more similar to a communist movement (natural communism, think potlucks, not marxism) than the religion we know today—it appears you can thank Paul, in part, for that. Also, if you’re looking to desugar Christianity with empathy, I recommend Kierkegaard’s excellent Fear and Trembling. Lewis’s trilemma falls uncomfortably close to Christianity-through-proof genre of literature—I realize that’s not his intent, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I’ve always found his The Weight of Glory to be more compelling.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    My understanding is that despite the massive similarities of core stoic and Buddhist beliefs that there is no evidence of a causal link between the two.

by afpx 7y ago

jasonhansel 7y ago

Christianity, especially in the first two centuries AD, was very heavily influenced by Stoic philosophy. (The Stoic influence declined somewhat after Augustine defeated the Pelagian heresy.) (For reference: Stoicism predated Christianity by around 300 years, and was quite entrenched by the time the Gospels were written.)

asark 7y ago
And everything was influenced by and influencing platonism at that time, so some of the connection may be via that.
- jasonhansel 7y ago
  Indeed. Epictetus is famous for (mis)interpreting Plato to suit his own ends.
afpx 7y ago
And, both Christianity and Stoicism were influenced by Buddhism. (Buddhism was practiced in both the Greek and Roman worlds, and scholars note many similarities between the two.)
- jasonhansel 7y ago
  This is dubious, but definitely not ridiculous. Buddhism was certainly known in parts of the Greco-Roman world, but there are significant differences between Buddhism and Stoicism, and there's no evidence of any direct intellectual connection. (Edit: one difference between the two is the Buddhist doctrine of "nonself", which contrasts with the Stoic view of the self as a part of universal Reason and a member of the kosmopolis.)
  - afpx 7y ago
    I am no expert; I only read a lot. But, my understanding is that early Christianity was a reaction away from Judaism. And, that the Old Testament was only added as part of the canon later. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity was must more similar to Buddhism with it’s hippy love message. But, yes, I’m sure that’s very controversial.
    - dorcos 7y ago
      Early Christianity is the fulfillment of 1st Century Judaism with Jesus Christ being revealed as the Messiah and King. Modern day Judaism, that is Rabbinic Judaism (which followed some time after the destruction of the 2nd Temple) denies Jesus as that expected Messiah and has an expectation of someone else that is to come. For Christians, The Old Testament and New Testament are very much coupled together. There's a lot of prophecies and typologies you can read about from the Old Testament that finds its fulfillment in Jesus and the New Testament (such as the suffering Messiah). I'd suggest C.S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity" (who was good friends and influenced to convert by J.R.R. Tolkien and G.K. Chesterton) to get a clearer picture of Christianity without the sugar coating we commonly get from the media today. Lewis brings up the Trilemma, which is unique only to the founder of Christianity.
      - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
        It’s also worth explicitly noting that Christianity-as-a-Jewish movement and Christianity-as-non-Judaism took a couple centuries to shake out. I would also guess that, and there is decent evidence for, christianity at the time would have looked much more similar to a communist movement (natural communism, think potlucks, not marxism) than the religion we know today—it appears you can thank Paul, in part, for that. Also, if you’re looking to desugar Christianity with empathy, I recommend Kierkegaard’s excellent Fear and Trembling. Lewis’s trilemma falls uncomfortably close to Christianity-through-proof genre of literature—I realize that’s not his intent, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I’ve always found his The Weight of Glory to be more compelling.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  My understanding is that despite the massive similarities of core stoic and Buddhist beliefs that there is no evidence of a causal link between the two.