8 ms·

I sometimes wonder what it would take for “yellow vest” type protests to happen in the US. It seems like there’s a combination of shame in talking about money,

I sometimes wonder what it would take for “yellow vest” type protests to happen in the US. It seems like there’s a combination of shame in talking about money, in being made to feel personally responsible for being in precarious financial situations (e.g. too much avocado toast!), and relatively easy access to consumer credit to numb things over. Or it’s just the “boiling frog” phenomenon where things get slightly worse every year due to everything getting a little more expensive but never sharply enough that it’d create a mass revolt.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> what it would take for “yellow vest” type protests to happen in the US The solution is simpler. If 18 to 34 year olds simply voted at the frequencies 45 to 64 year olds did [1], our views would form a block worth pandering to. Running as a candidate reducing pensions and alleviating student debt doesn't work because the former will vote you out of office in greater numbers than the latter will vote you in. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2017/comm/voting-rates-age.html https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2017/comm/voti...
- deogeo 7y ago
  > alleviating student debt Universities will just raise tuition to compensate. As they've been doing so far: https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/price-of-college-increasing-almost-8-times-faster-than-wages/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/pric... Edit: Unless you mean allow that debt to be discharged through bankruptcy. Which probably would put downward pressure on tuition..
  - philwelch 7y ago
    I would make student debt dischargeable through bankruptcy and I would also favor the federal government no longer providing, subsidizing, or guaranteeing student loans. The "cost" of higher education is a sham; with no incentive to ever reduce costs, the cost will always rise to match incoming revenues. Meanwhile, student loans are a predatory mechanism where teenagers are encouraged to take on tens of kilodollars of undischargeable, unsecured debt. This combination has allowed the cost of higher education to grow out of control, backed by the cheap, subsidized credit of millions of Americans. Very reminiscent of the housing bubble, in fact.
    - bobochan 7y ago
      As a parent paying college tuition right now I want to agree, but as a professor I see the other side of it. I teach at the graduate level and despite the high tuition we lose money on every student that we accept. It costs a lot to have faculty spending two hours with each student alone in office hours, plus six hours of class time per week, and countless hours of support virtually 18/7 via email. My time as faculty is just the tip of the iceberg: the cost of the buildings and grounds, IT costs, academic and administrative support, and the costs to support research, let alone student services and things like admissions, career services, etc. My father was an engineer that spent his retirement volunteering to teach computer skills to anyone who was interested. I will be retiring in a few years and I plan to follow in his footsteps, however humble my contributions may be. I would love to contribute to a change that would make high quality education available to many more people at a much lower costs, but as a long time participant in MOOCs, I am just not sure they are the way.
      - ibarea277 7y ago
        Why do you think college is 10x more expensive now? Seems like maybe some of those expenses are not materially impacting education quality, unless you think that the generation that got us to the moon was working with absolutely substandard educations.
        jccalhoun 7y ago
        I have a friend who is an advisor at a Big 10 school. While going through the old papers in her office she found the budget of the school from the late 90s. The school's expenses have doubled in that time. Part of it is certainly the amenities arm race. However, the amount of money they get from the state has only gone up by 50%.
        philwelch 7y ago
        > While going through the old papers in her office she found the budget of the school from the late 90s. The school's expenses have doubled in that time. Part of it is certainly the amenities arm race. However, the amount of money they get from the state has only gone up by 50%. The implication here is usually that the amount of money they get from the state is insufficient to keep up with costs, therefore universities are forced to raise tuition. I don't think this is true. I suspect universities would raise tuition anyway, and if they got more money from the state, they would just increase their costs even more.
sysbin 7y ago
Definitely a culture & behaviour mix that keeps people from acting in their best interest. Might be that the current offline/online social platforms don't allow what's needed to occur. Friends might talk about being tight on finances for a day but what else will come of it?
user17843 7y ago
It already happened, and was called "Occupy Wallstreet". Then identity politics came around and occupied the left.
- deogeo 7y ago
  I heard (and take this with a bucket of salt) that the aim of the ruling class is to de-economize politics, and de-politicize the economy. I.e. don't let pesky democracy get in the way of capital. Matches reality rather well.
- spamizbad 7y ago
  All politics is identity politics. The difference is the left embraced it without trying to sugar coat it. It’s too bitter and now there’s some backlash.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    >All politics is identity politics. That's only true if you define the term broadly enough to be useless. What about, say, anti-war demonstrations during Vietnam?
    - User23 7y ago
      Parent should have been more specific: all politics is identity politics in a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state. The USA of the Vietnam war no longer exists, and isn't comparable to the USA of today. In a nation state, politics tend to be divided more on ideological and regional lines, because everyone shares an identity.
      - scroblart 7y ago
        This is very weird comment. Are you saying that the USA was not a multi-ethnic/multi-religious state in the 1960s? In a nation state, politics tend to be divided more on ideological and regional lines, because everyone shares an identity. There has never been a "nation" where everybody shares an identity in the sense discussed above.
themagician 7y ago
As long as their is cheap food, cheap gas and television there will be no mass revolt in the US. Few are willing to risk their life when they ride around in their F150 picking up cheeseburgers, fries and a large drink for <$10 on the way home to watch the game… or whatever. That’s the real power of America that so many underestimate. You can placate 90% of the population with that alone. Take away any ONE of those things the US will spiral into anarchy in mere weeks.
- badpun 7y ago
  > Few are willing to risk their life when they ride around in their F150 picking up cheeseburgers, fries and a large drink for <$10 on the way home to watch the game… or whatever. That’s the real power of America that so many underestimate. You can placate 90% of the population with that alone. And no wonder. It's the lifestyle that billions of people in countries other than US can only dream of. A lot of them are risking their lifes to be able to live this dream.
- sizzle 7y ago
  Don't forget alcohol and marijuana for placating the masses.
  - kikoreis 7y ago
    And narcotics and antidepressants to handle chronic pain and PTSD. Having spent the last month on the West Coast I have started to think these might have a real dampening effect on violence potential.
  - themagician 7y ago
    You can get drugs in most places on the world pretty easily though.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> what it would take for “yellow vest” type protests to happen in the US The solution is simpler. If 18 to 34 year olds simply voted at the frequencies 45 to 64 year olds did [1], our views would form a block worth pandering to. Running as a candidate reducing pensions and alleviating student debt doesn't work because the former will vote you out of office in greater numbers than the latter will vote you in. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2017/comm/voting-rates-age.html https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2017/comm/voti...

deogeo 7y ago
> alleviating student debt Universities will just raise tuition to compensate. As they've been doing so far: https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/price-of-college-increasing-almost-8-times-faster-than-wages/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/pric... Edit: Unless you mean allow that debt to be discharged through bankruptcy. Which probably would put downward pressure on tuition..
- philwelch 7y ago
  I would make student debt dischargeable through bankruptcy and I would also favor the federal government no longer providing, subsidizing, or guaranteeing student loans. The "cost" of higher education is a sham; with no incentive to ever reduce costs, the cost will always rise to match incoming revenues. Meanwhile, student loans are a predatory mechanism where teenagers are encouraged to take on tens of kilodollars of undischargeable, unsecured debt. This combination has allowed the cost of higher education to grow out of control, backed by the cheap, subsidized credit of millions of Americans. Very reminiscent of the housing bubble, in fact.
  - bobochan 7y ago
    As a parent paying college tuition right now I want to agree, but as a professor I see the other side of it. I teach at the graduate level and despite the high tuition we lose money on every student that we accept. It costs a lot to have faculty spending two hours with each student alone in office hours, plus six hours of class time per week, and countless hours of support virtually 18/7 via email. My time as faculty is just the tip of the iceberg: the cost of the buildings and grounds, IT costs, academic and administrative support, and the costs to support research, let alone student services and things like admissions, career services, etc. My father was an engineer that spent his retirement volunteering to teach computer skills to anyone who was interested. I will be retiring in a few years and I plan to follow in his footsteps, however humble my contributions may be. I would love to contribute to a change that would make high quality education available to many more people at a much lower costs, but as a long time participant in MOOCs, I am just not sure they are the way.
    - ibarea277 7y ago
      Why do you think college is 10x more expensive now? Seems like maybe some of those expenses are not materially impacting education quality, unless you think that the generation that got us to the moon was working with absolutely substandard educations.
      - jccalhoun 7y ago
        I have a friend who is an advisor at a Big 10 school. While going through the old papers in her office she found the budget of the school from the late 90s. The school's expenses have doubled in that time. Part of it is certainly the amenities arm race. However, the amount of money they get from the state has only gone up by 50%.
        philwelch 7y ago
        > While going through the old papers in her office she found the budget of the school from the late 90s. The school's expenses have doubled in that time. Part of it is certainly the amenities arm race. However, the amount of money they get from the state has only gone up by 50%. The implication here is usually that the amount of money they get from the state is insufficient to keep up with costs, therefore universities are forced to raise tuition. I don't think this is true. I suspect universities would raise tuition anyway, and if they got more money from the state, they would just increase their costs even more.

sysbin 7y ago

Definitely a culture & behaviour mix that keeps people from acting in their best interest. Might be that the current offline/online social platforms don't allow what's needed to occur. Friends might talk about being tight on finances for a day but what else will come of it?

user17843 7y ago

It already happened, and was called "Occupy Wallstreet". Then identity politics came around and occupied the left.

deogeo 7y ago
I heard (and take this with a bucket of salt) that the aim of the ruling class is to de-economize politics, and de-politicize the economy. I.e. don't let pesky democracy get in the way of capital. Matches reality rather well.
spamizbad 7y ago
All politics is identity politics. The difference is the left embraced it without trying to sugar coat it. It’s too bitter and now there’s some backlash.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  >All politics is identity politics. That's only true if you define the term broadly enough to be useless. What about, say, anti-war demonstrations during Vietnam?
  - User23 7y ago
    Parent should have been more specific: all politics is identity politics in a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state. The USA of the Vietnam war no longer exists, and isn't comparable to the USA of today. In a nation state, politics tend to be divided more on ideological and regional lines, because everyone shares an identity.
    - scroblart 7y ago
      This is very weird comment. Are you saying that the USA was not a multi-ethnic/multi-religious state in the 1960s? In a nation state, politics tend to be divided more on ideological and regional lines, because everyone shares an identity. There has never been a "nation" where everybody shares an identity in the sense discussed above.

themagician 7y ago

As long as their is cheap food, cheap gas and television there will be no mass revolt in the US. Few are willing to risk their life when they ride around in their F150 picking up cheeseburgers, fries and a large drink for <$10 on the way home to watch the game… or whatever. That’s the real power of America that so many underestimate. You can placate 90% of the population with that alone. Take away any ONE of those things the US will spiral into anarchy in mere weeks.

badpun 7y ago
> Few are willing to risk their life when they ride around in their F150 picking up cheeseburgers, fries and a large drink for <$10 on the way home to watch the game… or whatever. That’s the real power of America that so many underestimate. You can placate 90% of the population with that alone. And no wonder. It's the lifestyle that billions of people in countries other than US can only dream of. A lot of them are risking their lifes to be able to live this dream.
sizzle 7y ago
Don't forget alcohol and marijuana for placating the masses.
- kikoreis 7y ago
  And narcotics and antidepressants to handle chronic pain and PTSD. Having spent the last month on the West Coast I have started to think these might have a real dampening effect on violence potential.
- themagician 7y ago
  You can get drugs in most places on the world pretty easily though.