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- In 1918, borders of Poland were established on the future Curzon line (more or less, less in fact) - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Polski_(1918%E2%80

- In 1918, borders of Poland were established on the future Curzon line (more or less, less in fact) - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Polski_(1918%E2%80%931939)#/media/File:Republic_of_Poland_in_mid_November_1918.PNG https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Polski_(1918%E2%80%93... - The territorial gains of Poland in 1919-1920 materialized, because it won a war started by the Soviet Union - Curzon line was proposed/described only in 1920 - Those lands (that you described as conquered and re-conquered) weren't Russian etnically, more like Belarusian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, and Ruthenian - (edit) The secret pact (Germany-USSR) didn't say Soviet union will recover the territorial gains from 1920-1921, but that it will occupy Eastern Poland (east of Vistula River), making it effectively partition of Poland, so no Curzon line here too. PS: Please reply if you'd like, and EOT for me. This whole centithread started because I wanted to display that the current Russian historiography is heavily biased (way more than other "western" countries) towards minimizing its own misdeeds, and portraying them as innocent, normal or justified.

sergeykish 7y ago
I'm sorry, but this reads like "Russians fought for Belarusian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, and Ruthenian lands". Looks quite strange at least about Ukrainians (which were half as many as Russians). Do you think they stayed home? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_All-Union_Census_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_All-Union_Census_of_the_... Meanwhile Poland occupied ethnic Ukrainian territories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Ukrainian_War (east of future Curzon line). This helped Bolshevik to overthrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic Of course Bolshevik never intended to stop until all Europe is in fire. That's Poland who started the war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Offensive_(1920) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Offensive_(1920) > Piłsudski also said: Closed within the boundaries of the 16th century, cut off from the Black Sea and Baltic Sea, deprived of land and mineral wealth of the South and South-east, Russia could easily move into the status of second-grade power. Poland as the largest and strongest of new states, could easily establish a sphere of influence stretching from Finland to the Caucasus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War I can't see Poland in good light here - same imperial attitude, same old flows in ethnic politics. Same as Russia. As for the pact > The terms of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939 provided for the partition of Poland along the line of the San, Vistula and Narew rivers which did not go along Curzon Line but reached far beyond it and awarded the Soviet Union with territories of Lublin and near Warsaw. Yet > Soviet Union annexed all territories east of the Curzon Line plus Białystok and Eastern Galicia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line PS: I've replied only because I wanted to display that the comment is heavily biased (way more than other "western" countries) towards minimizing its own misdeeds, and portraying them as innocent, normal or justified.
- jagger11 7y ago
  I don't think I've ever made a point that PL (and earlier PL-LI commonwealth) had a stellar record of treatment of minority nationalities in its borders. Could you clarify with which point I'd made you argue?
  - sergeykish 7y ago
    > Those lands (that you described as conquered and re-conquered) weren't Russian etnically, more like Belarusian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, and Ruthenian Those lands were not Poland ethnically.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]

sergeykish 7y ago

I'm sorry, but this reads like "Russians fought for Belarusian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, and Ruthenian lands". Looks quite strange at least about Ukrainians (which were half as many as Russians). Do you think they stayed home? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_All-Union_Census_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_All-Union_Census_of_the_... Meanwhile Poland occupied ethnic Ukrainian territories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Ukrainian_War (east of future Curzon line). This helped Bolshevik to overthrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic Of course Bolshevik never intended to stop until all Europe is in fire. That's Poland who started the war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Offensive_(1920) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Offensive_(1920) > Piłsudski also said: Closed within the boundaries of the 16th century, cut off from the Black Sea and Baltic Sea, deprived of land and mineral wealth of the South and South-east, Russia could easily move into the status of second-grade power. Poland as the largest and strongest of new states, could easily establish a sphere of influence stretching from Finland to the Caucasus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War I can't see Poland in good light here - same imperial attitude, same old flows in ethnic politics. Same as Russia. As for the pact > The terms of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939 provided for the partition of Poland along the line of the San, Vistula and Narew rivers which did not go along Curzon Line but reached far beyond it and awarded the Soviet Union with territories of Lublin and near Warsaw. Yet > Soviet Union annexed all territories east of the Curzon Line plus Białystok and Eastern Galicia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line PS: I've replied only because I wanted to display that the comment is heavily biased (way more than other "western" countries) towards minimizing its own misdeeds, and portraying them as innocent, normal or justified.

jagger11 7y ago
I don't think I've ever made a point that PL (and earlier PL-LI commonwealth) had a stellar record of treatment of minority nationalities in its borders. Could you clarify with which point I'd made you argue?
- sergeykish 7y ago
  > Those lands (that you described as conquered and re-conquered) weren't Russian etnically, more like Belarusian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, and Ruthenian Those lands were not Poland ethnically.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]