4 ms·

I think usage of Capitalism here is a misnomer, because replacing 'capitalism' with 'human greed' or 'human fallibility' changes nothing. The problem is not ca

by gtt 7y ago

I think usage of Capitalism here is a misnomer, because replacing 'capitalism' with 'human greed' or 'human fallibility' changes nothing. The problem is not caused by markets or property rights. If anything, competition actually makes games least toxic. Look how pay2win games being replaced by vanity items selling games.

coldtea 7y ago
Yes, but capitalism is the system that says "human greed is good" and that basing everything self-interest turns out for "the best". From Adam Smith: "“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest." To Gordon Gecko: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed_Is_Good_(disambiguation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed_Is_Good_(disambiguation) Via countless others...
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Understand there's a difference between 'greed' and 'self-interest'. One in consuming; the other, enlightened.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Destroying others for one's own gain is fully compatible with self-interest -- there's nothing enlightened about it. Altruism, yes, is enlightened.
- tomhoward 7y ago
  > Yes, but capitalism is the system that says "human greed is good" and that basing everything self-interest turns out for "the best". > From Adam Smith: "“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest." Smith wasn't saying greed is "good". He was saying that self-interest is unavoidable, so the economic system must accept that inevitability. I don't think you'll find anything in the work of Smith, celebrating greed the way that Gordon Gecko quote does, or that Ayn Rand and her acolytes did. Smith talks just as much about the near-universal human need to be both "loved" and "lovely"; i.e., to be thought well of both by one's self and by others: Man naturally desires, not only to be loved, but to be lovely; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of love. He naturally dreads, not only to be hated, but to be hateful; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of hatred. He desires, not only praise, but praiseworthiness; or to be that thing which, though it should be praised by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of praise. He dreads, not only blame, but blameworthiness; or to be that thing which, though, it should be blamed by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of blame. [1] There doesn't seem to be anything consistent with "greed is good" in that, or in anything I've seen attributed to Smith. [1] http://motivatedmastery.com/adam-smith-on-human-nature-and-our-desire-to-be-both-loved-and-lovely/ http://motivatedmastery.com/adam-smith-on-human-nature-and-o...
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Smith wasn't saying greed is "good". He was saying that self-interest is unavoidable, so the economic system must accept that inevitability. Well, self-interest is not unavoidable. There were societies where doing what's honorable or good for the many, was more celebrated than self-interest. By taking it as inevitable, why make self-interest not just an acceptable, but a celebrated even trait.
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      I'll preface this by saying that I read and enjoy many of your comments, and I know you're a deep and nuanced thinker. But in this case I think you seem to be lacking the nuanced approach this topic needs more than most. > Well, self-interest is not unavoidable We agree, don't we, that below a certain level, a lack of self-interest will lead to our rapid death, or inability to do anything useful (and indeed even make us a burden on others). I.e, if we don't take care of our own safety, warmth, sustenance and health, we'll soon die, or become unable to function and cease to be able to do anything beneficial for anyone, ourselves included. On this basis, it's normal and healthy for us to take care of our own basic needs first, then those of our family members and near neighbours, then any with any surplus energy and resources we have to share, we can contribute to the wellbeing of others less close to us. This reality applies regardless of the economic system under which we live, however the incentives of that economic system will be a significant influence on the extent to individuals focus more heavily on their own interest vs those of others. But it's not as if self-interest and benevolence are polar opposites. The better resourced and energised one is, the more good they are able to do for others - whether it be via running non-profit organisation, a public organisation, or a private company where one is employing people and producing goods/services for the benefit of customers. So in this sense, taking care of one's self-interest can easily lead to better outcomes for others. None of this is consistent with the assertion that "capitalism" or the economic philosophy described by Adam Smith (who never used the word "capitalism") is a philosophy that celebrates greed or selfishness, and only alternative economic philosophies celebrate benevolence. Selflessness and generosity is broadly celebrated and admired by most people in countries that are largely "capitalist". Gordon Gecko was an anti-sympathetic caricature. People who idealise and engage in excessive selfishness are largely shunned and isolated by polite society. On the flipside, writers and activists who have idealised "seizing the means of production" could hardly be presumed blind to the power self-interest. Please understand, I'm not making any black vs white argument. I'm not any kind of "capitalism" activist. I'm personally deeply interested in working towards economic systems that are most effective at providing for the wellbeing of all. I live in a country with a mixed economy (Australia) with a socialised health system and a large welfare system (much like Scandinavian countries), and I think our system works well but I'd love for it to work better for those less well off. So it's a topic I think/read about and care about a lot. Which is why I think it's important for us to have more sophisticated positions than "capitalism celebrates greed", when the reality, like human nature itself, is far more nuanced than that.
- gtfratteus 7y ago
  Did you seriously just cite a quote from a fictional villain as evidence that capitalism is bad?

by gtt 7y ago

coldtea 7y ago

Yes, but capitalism is the system that says "human greed is good" and that basing everything self-interest turns out for "the best". From Adam Smith: "“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest." To Gordon Gecko: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed_Is_Good_(disambiguation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed_Is_Good_(disambiguation) Via countless others...

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Understand there's a difference between 'greed' and 'self-interest'. One in consuming; the other, enlightened.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Destroying others for one's own gain is fully compatible with self-interest -- there's nothing enlightened about it. Altruism, yes, is enlightened.
tomhoward 7y ago
> Yes, but capitalism is the system that says "human greed is good" and that basing everything self-interest turns out for "the best". > From Adam Smith: "“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest." Smith wasn't saying greed is "good". He was saying that self-interest is unavoidable, so the economic system must accept that inevitability. I don't think you'll find anything in the work of Smith, celebrating greed the way that Gordon Gecko quote does, or that Ayn Rand and her acolytes did. Smith talks just as much about the near-universal human need to be both "loved" and "lovely"; i.e., to be thought well of both by one's self and by others: Man naturally desires, not only to be loved, but to be lovely; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of love. He naturally dreads, not only to be hated, but to be hateful; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of hatred. He desires, not only praise, but praiseworthiness; or to be that thing which, though it should be praised by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of praise. He dreads, not only blame, but blameworthiness; or to be that thing which, though, it should be blamed by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of blame. [1] There doesn't seem to be anything consistent with "greed is good" in that, or in anything I've seen attributed to Smith. [1] http://motivatedmastery.com/adam-smith-on-human-nature-and-our-desire-to-be-both-loved-and-lovely/ http://motivatedmastery.com/adam-smith-on-human-nature-and-o...
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Smith wasn't saying greed is "good". He was saying that self-interest is unavoidable, so the economic system must accept that inevitability. Well, self-interest is not unavoidable. There were societies where doing what's honorable or good for the many, was more celebrated than self-interest. By taking it as inevitable, why make self-interest not just an acceptable, but a celebrated even trait.
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    I'll preface this by saying that I read and enjoy many of your comments, and I know you're a deep and nuanced thinker. But in this case I think you seem to be lacking the nuanced approach this topic needs more than most. > Well, self-interest is not unavoidable We agree, don't we, that below a certain level, a lack of self-interest will lead to our rapid death, or inability to do anything useful (and indeed even make us a burden on others). I.e, if we don't take care of our own safety, warmth, sustenance and health, we'll soon die, or become unable to function and cease to be able to do anything beneficial for anyone, ourselves included. On this basis, it's normal and healthy for us to take care of our own basic needs first, then those of our family members and near neighbours, then any with any surplus energy and resources we have to share, we can contribute to the wellbeing of others less close to us. This reality applies regardless of the economic system under which we live, however the incentives of that economic system will be a significant influence on the extent to individuals focus more heavily on their own interest vs those of others. But it's not as if self-interest and benevolence are polar opposites. The better resourced and energised one is, the more good they are able to do for others - whether it be via running non-profit organisation, a public organisation, or a private company where one is employing people and producing goods/services for the benefit of customers. So in this sense, taking care of one's self-interest can easily lead to better outcomes for others. None of this is consistent with the assertion that "capitalism" or the economic philosophy described by Adam Smith (who never used the word "capitalism") is a philosophy that celebrates greed or selfishness, and only alternative economic philosophies celebrate benevolence. Selflessness and generosity is broadly celebrated and admired by most people in countries that are largely "capitalist". Gordon Gecko was an anti-sympathetic caricature. People who idealise and engage in excessive selfishness are largely shunned and isolated by polite society. On the flipside, writers and activists who have idealised "seizing the means of production" could hardly be presumed blind to the power self-interest. Please understand, I'm not making any black vs white argument. I'm not any kind of "capitalism" activist. I'm personally deeply interested in working towards economic systems that are most effective at providing for the wellbeing of all. I live in a country with a mixed economy (Australia) with a socialised health system and a large welfare system (much like Scandinavian countries), and I think our system works well but I'd love for it to work better for those less well off. So it's a topic I think/read about and care about a lot. Which is why I think it's important for us to have more sophisticated positions than "capitalism celebrates greed", when the reality, like human nature itself, is far more nuanced than that.
gtfratteus 7y ago
Did you seriously just cite a quote from a fictional villain as evidence that capitalism is bad?