3 ms·

That's pretty smart.

kls 16y ago
Well I don't know about smart, but it is practical. The problem with our profession and the reason the video while comical is not accurate. We get compared to other professionals a lot, like doctors or lawyers but the problem is unlike doctors or lawyers, each new job we do, is like performing a completely new procedure. I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The economies of scale are way out of whack to make those kind of comparisons. What other professional, in generally do is a reproduces group of processes. Our profession is unique in the fact that while there are similarities in what we do, each new project is wholly different (if you are doing custom apps). Now we do have stuff like Wordpress that make the simple stuff cookie cutter but for the most part people are not looking for that when they hire a custom software developer. They are looking for a new and novel product. The problem is that it is one of the only professions where product development is purchased from small and unsophisticated buyers. We really are a unique profession in which our product is still crafted and not manufactured. The problem is as a society we have gotten used to everything being manufactured so the expectation is that building software is akin to manufacturing where the reality is it is more akin to an art and just like art, their are few really talented artist to go around. Understanding, this goes a long way to helping customers see your value without alienating them by becoming defensive. I read the horror stories about bad clients all the time and sometimes wonder if it is a lack of educating the customer. I have had maybe 2 or 3 really bad customers in my 20 years. I just don't see how luck could produce those odds. I don't think I have a secret sauce and I am sure I have turned a good deal away that would have been bad customers, I just take time to understand their needs and to explain how software development works. Usually, if someone does not feel like they are getting screwed they are pretty agreeable. If someone comes to me and says I have 50k to build X and X looks like 40K to me, I will tell them I am not comfortable taking the gig, based on the fact if it overruns they don't have the reserve to see it through and that I do not want to leave a customer without a product at the end of 50k. They then either tell me what they can burn to, which is usually far more than needed or we both agree that they are putting their capital at risk. In which case, I try to work with them to trim features to get it to a 25k product. Double the estimate overruns are rare if one is even remotely decent at estimation.
- vacri 16y ago
 "I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most." Speaking as someone who went to get a new filling in June, went through getting a root canal on another tooth, and finally will end up going under a GA to get some more serious work done in a month or two, I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do not charge on a fixed-symptom basis. Even if you need to return to a doctor only to get a new copy of a script you have already had, most doctors will charge you the consult time. Given that you appear to suggest there is no art to medicine, it sounds like you have no exposure to the medical world. Our profession isn't as unique as you make it out to be.
 - michael_dorfman 16y ago
 * I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do not charge on a fixed-symptom basis.* Interestingly, under the Medicare reimbursement system, that's pretty much exactly how they are paid (if the patient is a Medicare patient).
 - vacri 16y ago
 Are you honestly saying that if you go to your local bulk-billing doctor with a stubborn symptom that won't go away, necessitating multiple visits, that the doctor will only ever be paid for the first consultation? That the rest are all (metaphorically) 'bug-fixes that are included in the original fixed-price spec'? Ain't so. Doctors get paid for their time, Medicare just has the government pay for it instead of the patient. Also, dentists in particular are poorly covered by medicare here. I remember as a student going to a dentist that was affiliated with my uni and having the receptionist laugh when I pulled out my medicare card...
 - michael_dorfman 16y ago
 I was thinking of a hospitalization setting, where the payment is made for a DRG (a Diagnosis-Related Group) regardless of the specific procedures performed. Cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group

kls 16y ago

Well I don't know about smart, but it is practical. The problem with our profession and the reason the video while comical is not accurate. We get compared to other professionals a lot, like doctors or lawyers but the problem is unlike doctors or lawyers, each new job we do, is like performing a completely new procedure. I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The economies of scale are way out of whack to make those kind of comparisons. What other professional, in generally do is a reproduces group of processes. Our profession is unique in the fact that while there are similarities in what we do, each new project is wholly different (if you are doing custom apps). Now we do have stuff like Wordpress that make the simple stuff cookie cutter but for the most part people are not looking for that when they hire a custom software developer. They are looking for a new and novel product. The problem is that it is one of the only professions where product development is purchased from small and unsophisticated buyers. We really are a unique profession in which our product is still crafted and not manufactured. The problem is as a society we have gotten used to everything being manufactured so the expectation is that building software is akin to manufacturing where the reality is it is more akin to an art and just like art, their are few really talented artist to go around. Understanding, this goes a long way to helping customers see your value without alienating them by becoming defensive. I read the horror stories about bad clients all the time and sometimes wonder if it is a lack of educating the customer. I have had maybe 2 or 3 really bad customers in my 20 years. I just don't see how luck could produce those odds. I don't think I have a secret sauce and I am sure I have turned a good deal away that would have been bad customers, I just take time to understand their needs and to explain how software development works. Usually, if someone does not feel like they are getting screwed they are pretty agreeable. If someone comes to me and says I have 50k to build X and X looks like 40K to me, I will tell them I am not comfortable taking the gig, based on the fact if it overruns they don't have the reserve to see it through and that I do not want to leave a customer without a product at the end of 50k. They then either tell me what they can burn to, which is usually far more than needed or we both agree that they are putting their capital at risk. In which case, I try to work with them to trim features to get it to a 25k product. Double the estimate overruns are rare if one is even remotely decent at estimation.

vacri 16y ago
"I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most." Speaking as someone who went to get a new filling in June, went through getting a root canal on another tooth, and finally will end up going under a GA to get some more serious work done in a month or two, I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do not charge on a fixed-symptom basis. Even if you need to return to a doctor only to get a new copy of a script you have already had, most doctors will charge you the consult time. Given that you appear to suggest there is no art to medicine, it sounds like you have no exposure to the medical world. Our profession isn't as unique as you make it out to be.
- michael_dorfman 16y ago
 * I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do not charge on a fixed-symptom basis.* Interestingly, under the Medicare reimbursement system, that's pretty much exactly how they are paid (if the patient is a Medicare patient).
 - vacri 16y ago
 Are you honestly saying that if you go to your local bulk-billing doctor with a stubborn symptom that won't go away, necessitating multiple visits, that the doctor will only ever be paid for the first consultation? That the rest are all (metaphorically) 'bug-fixes that are included in the original fixed-price spec'? Ain't so. Doctors get paid for their time, Medicare just has the government pay for it instead of the patient. Also, dentists in particular are poorly covered by medicare here. I remember as a student going to a dentist that was affiliated with my uni and having the receptionist laugh when I pulled out my medicare card...
 - michael_dorfman 16y ago
 I was thinking of a hospitalization setting, where the payment is made for a DRG (a Diagnosis-Related Group) regardless of the specific procedures performed. Cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group