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I am not super pro-patent, but I don't think it's totally wild to patent an algorithm. Algorithms can be extremely hard to discover and extremely valuable. Tog

I am not super pro-patent, but I don't think it's totally wild to patent an algorithm. Algorithms can be extremely hard to discover and extremely valuable. Together these facts are why the patent system can usefully apply, same as traditional patent classes. And lots of traditional types of patents are "algorithms" too, really. It's not that different from, say, patenting a drug. The algorithm to manufacture [insert expensive drug here] probably isn't that hard to follow, but it was very hard to discover, and we want to encourage more people to discover more algorithms like this. The real issue is that the people in the court system can't understand the different between trivial, straightforward, somewhat advanced, and truly sophisticated algorithms. Also, since you don't need to risk health and life to test them, computer algorithms are typically easier to test than drugs, so it's likely that few-to-none of them satisfy the "difficult to invent" standard that drug molecules do. It costs like a billion dollars to develop a drug; PageRank was made by a few guys in a room in a matter of months. As another interesting point of comparison, a lot of old weird gun designs from the late 19th/early 20th century were made to get around patents. It's dumb to make a "blow-forward" pistol but there was a time when the straightforward "blow-back" system was patented. Whole countries used quite weird and suboptimal weapons for a long time simply to avoid patent entanglements. I'm sure to them it seemed similar - how can you patent putting these 2 pieces of metal together in this shape? These systems were not very complicated.

enriquto 7y ago
I totally cannot bend my mind around this. It is irrelevant if patents on algorithms are useful and good for society in some cases. They are so much self-evidently wrong that the point is moot. The fact that "trivial" algorithms can be patented is a different question that I am not addressing. I am talking only about the non-trivial algorithms that require a stroke of genius. Imagine that Euclid's algorithm was patented? Or Pythagoras theorem? Or the definition of exterior derivative? Or the expression of a function as Fourier series? All of these are valuable ideas that are non-trivial to come by. The same argument for software patents applies to each of these cases, and in all these cases it is evident (to me) that these mathematical constructions cannot be patented, and that society cannot grant monopoly of their usage to their discoverers.
- Scea91 7y ago
  > Imagine that Euclid's algorithm was patented? Or Pythagoras theorem? Or the definition of exterior derivative? Or the expression of a function as Fourier series? All of these are valuable ideas that are non-trivial to come by. The same argument for software patents applies to each of these cases, and in all these cases it is evident (to me) that these mathematical constructions cannot be patented, and that society cannot grant monopoly of their usage to their discoverers. You are forgetting that patents are only granted for limited time. If we applied the current system, those things would be patented only for 20 years after their discovery. Would it still be unimaginable? Maybe your opinion is still the same but the situation is not as clear-cut as it seems. For example, I would guess that if patents were cancelled the industrial budgets for research would somewhat decrease, because there would be smaller advantage in figuring things out first.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
  Euclid and Pythagoras are not, and cannot, be patented. So it seems somewhat illogical to argue against patents with the hypothetical of those algorithms being patented.
- catherd 7y ago
  Patents on algorithms are bad because any sane person would feel revulsion at the though of them? Is that the content of your argument? If Euclid's algorithm was patented in a system similar to our modern one, he would have... cornered the marked in ancient Greek cryptographic protocols for 20 years or so before other ancient mathematicians were allowed join in?
- boothby 7y ago
  > Imagine that Euclid's algorithm was patented... As a mathematician with a patented algorithm / open source advocate... I'm extremely squeamish about this and not super comfortable with it. On the other hand... Cardano's formula was once a trade secret. He's dead and we know the trick now. As others have pointed out, patents expire in 20 years or less. Nothing is stopping you from building on somebody else's patent (popular among trolls: a patent on applying your patent in a novel area, or a more optimized version, a dual version, etc, of your patent). In that situation you can't use your own patent without paying them... and neither can they use yours. Implementation might be a problem, but you can still prove your theorems.
salty_biscuits 7y ago
"Algorithms can be extremely hard to discover" Can be, most aren't. Most are specializations of a well known thing, applied to a new area. Page rank is (maybe) a good example of this. Not quite old enough to transfer myself back to the time, but diffusion on graphs and power methods have been around for a while.
vbezhenar 7y ago
I wonder if some real algorithms were ever patented? I mean, just read Knuth, there are brilliant algorithms there that I would never invent myself. Various sorting algorithms, graph algorithms and so on. They are a foundation for our computing. But I never heard that quick sort was ever patented. Why is that?
- justincormack 7y ago
  There are a lot if algorithms that are patented that stop people doing stuff, eg in cryptography, mp3, erasure codes etc.
- cesarb 7y ago
  > But I never heard that quick sort was ever patented. Why is that? Quick sort is from a time before the USA decided that algorithms could be patented. In fact, most foundational algorithms of computer science are from that time. IMO, the development of computer science would have been hampered for a couple of decades had it been possible to patent algorithms back then; we're very lucky that this wasn't the case.
- denzil_correa 7y ago
  Latent Semantic Indexing (LSI) - used in Inforation Retrieval systems - is one example of a patented algorithm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_semantic_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_semantic_analysis http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4839853.PN.&OS=PN/4839853&RS=PN/4839853 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H...
- bboreham 7y ago
  Example: the Lempel-Ziv-Welsh algorithm, used in gif files, was patented by Unisys.

enriquto 7y ago

I totally cannot bend my mind around this. It is irrelevant if patents on algorithms are useful and good for society in some cases. They are so much self-evidently wrong that the point is moot. The fact that "trivial" algorithms can be patented is a different question that I am not addressing. I am talking only about the non-trivial algorithms that require a stroke of genius. Imagine that Euclid's algorithm was patented? Or Pythagoras theorem? Or the definition of exterior derivative? Or the expression of a function as Fourier series? All of these are valuable ideas that are non-trivial to come by. The same argument for software patents applies to each of these cases, and in all these cases it is evident (to me) that these mathematical constructions cannot be patented, and that society cannot grant monopoly of their usage to their discoverers.

Scea91 7y ago
> Imagine that Euclid's algorithm was patented? Or Pythagoras theorem? Or the definition of exterior derivative? Or the expression of a function as Fourier series? All of these are valuable ideas that are non-trivial to come by. The same argument for software patents applies to each of these cases, and in all these cases it is evident (to me) that these mathematical constructions cannot be patented, and that society cannot grant monopoly of their usage to their discoverers. You are forgetting that patents are only granted for limited time. If we applied the current system, those things would be patented only for 20 years after their discovery. Would it still be unimaginable? Maybe your opinion is still the same but the situation is not as clear-cut as it seems. For example, I would guess that if patents were cancelled the industrial budgets for research would somewhat decrease, because there would be smaller advantage in figuring things out first.
IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
Euclid and Pythagoras are not, and cannot, be patented. So it seems somewhat illogical to argue against patents with the hypothetical of those algorithms being patented.
catherd 7y ago
Patents on algorithms are bad because any sane person would feel revulsion at the though of them? Is that the content of your argument? If Euclid's algorithm was patented in a system similar to our modern one, he would have... cornered the marked in ancient Greek cryptographic protocols for 20 years or so before other ancient mathematicians were allowed join in?
boothby 7y ago
> Imagine that Euclid's algorithm was patented... As a mathematician with a patented algorithm / open source advocate... I'm extremely squeamish about this and not super comfortable with it. On the other hand... Cardano's formula was once a trade secret. He's dead and we know the trick now. As others have pointed out, patents expire in 20 years or less. Nothing is stopping you from building on somebody else's patent (popular among trolls: a patent on applying your patent in a novel area, or a more optimized version, a dual version, etc, of your patent). In that situation you can't use your own patent without paying them... and neither can they use yours. Implementation might be a problem, but you can still prove your theorems.

salty_biscuits 7y ago

"Algorithms can be extremely hard to discover" Can be, most aren't. Most are specializations of a well known thing, applied to a new area. Page rank is (maybe) a good example of this. Not quite old enough to transfer myself back to the time, but diffusion on graphs and power methods have been around for a while.

vbezhenar 7y ago

I wonder if some real algorithms were ever patented? I mean, just read Knuth, there are brilliant algorithms there that I would never invent myself. Various sorting algorithms, graph algorithms and so on. They are a foundation for our computing. But I never heard that quick sort was ever patented. Why is that?

justincormack 7y ago
There are a lot if algorithms that are patented that stop people doing stuff, eg in cryptography, mp3, erasure codes etc.
cesarb 7y ago
> But I never heard that quick sort was ever patented. Why is that? Quick sort is from a time before the USA decided that algorithms could be patented. In fact, most foundational algorithms of computer science are from that time. IMO, the development of computer science would have been hampered for a couple of decades had it been possible to patent algorithms back then; we're very lucky that this wasn't the case.
denzil_correa 7y ago
Latent Semantic Indexing (LSI) - used in Inforation Retrieval systems - is one example of a patented algorithm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_semantic_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_semantic_analysis http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4839853.PN.&OS=PN/4839853&RS=PN/4839853 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H...
bboreham 7y ago
Example: the Lempel-Ziv-Welsh algorithm, used in gif files, was patented by Unisys.