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While I am sympathetic to Uber and Lyft drivers and other gig economy workers, I am wondering if anyone has the done the calculus on job losses vs. making somet

by dmode 7y ago

While I am sympathetic to Uber and Lyft drivers and other gig economy workers, I am wondering if anyone has the done the calculus on job losses vs. making something. And whether making something is better than being jobless. I met a Uber driver the other day who drives 5000 miles per month. Clearly that is close to exploitation. But if Uber is forced to pay drivers 100% more surely there will be fewer drivers. And many people may not have a path to make money. In addition, I have met many Uber drivers who are retired and only do few hours over the weekend for supplemental income. This sweeping bill will also take out those positions. It feels like short sighted without accounting for these edge cases. Also, what is the difference between Uber and eBay / Airbnb ? Can a seller in eBay or a host at Airbnb be considered an employee ? Essentially both eBay and Airbnb have no business without their sellers or hosts. One can claim that these are marketplaces, but the only difference between these marketplaces and Uber is that Uber sets price (according to the ABC test). Can Uber then simply skirt the law by allowing a price "opt-in" suggestion ? or even outsourcing pricing to another LLC ? Edit: just thinking more about my last point. Uber can easily let drivers set their own price and simply show the lower price range to the passenger. Will be interesting to see how that plays out

jeremyjh 7y ago
eBay and Airbnb sellers are using their own capital to buy and sell goods that they own. They are not selling their labor in any sense. Uber drivers use their own cars but they are primarily selling their labor.
- entropea 7y ago
  They include the cost of all of that in their prices, at least, someone who ran a good business would. This is not comparable to Uber, because drivers do not set their own prices. I also am pretty certain Uber takes much higher percent cut than eBay and Paypal/payment processing.
- dmode 7y ago
  Does it matter whether labor or capital is sold ? The ABC test doesn’t check for that. Uber drivers also use their own capital to buy cars. The major difference is setting prices
  - jeremyjh 7y ago
    > The ABC test doesn’t check for that. It does. It is labor law, and it applies to labor, not to transactions performed in a market place. >The ruling and the bill instruct businesses to use the so-called “ABC test” to figure out whether a worker is an employee. > (b) is doing work that isn’t central to the company’s business Workers doing work.
manfredo 7y ago
> I met a Uber driver the other day who drives 5000 miles per month. Clearly that is close to exploitation. Averaging 30 miles an hour, that's 166 hours a month.
- stevesimmons 7y ago
  How did you know 30mph is the right average speed? For instance, average driving speed in Manhattan in 2016 was 7.1mph. Your working time calculation also needs to consider loading and unloading passengers, gaps between fares, time for comfort breaks, refueling, vehicle cleaning and maintenance, etc.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > How did you know 30mph is the right average speed? For instance, average driving speed in Manhattan in 2016 was 7.1mph. And on the highway, it's 60-80 MPH. It could very well be under 160 hours. > Your working time calculation also needs to consider loading and unloading passengers, gaps between fares, time for comfort breaks, refueling, vehicle cleaning and maintenance, etc. True, and the 5000 mile count also needs to subtract driving for personal reasons. Judging by the previous comment the figure of 5000 was not limited to miles specifically driven for Uber.
- dmode 7y ago
  166 hours of driving can mean 8 hrs of driving for 20 days. This is very different than 8 hrs of sitting in front of a computer. I get tired driving 2 hrs every day back and forth from work. Not to mention that that hours can be way more in an urban area as most rides are short distances and traffic is very tight
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    Yeah, but that's what it is to be a full-time driver. It's no different than commercial truck drivers (long-haul or short haul), taxi drivers, limousine drivers, or really just anyone else whose job amounts to "driver".
- 7y ago
sokoloff 7y ago
> I met a Uber driver the other day who drives 5000 miles per month. Clearly that is close to exploitation. It seems to me like you skipped a step or two in your explanation there. What inherently makes driving 5000 miles per month exploitation? There are many paid driving gigs (some employee, some owner-operator) that drive at least that much and I'm not sure I'd classify any of them as exploitative.

by dmode 7y ago

jeremyjh 7y ago

eBay and Airbnb sellers are using their own capital to buy and sell goods that they own. They are not selling their labor in any sense. Uber drivers use their own cars but they are primarily selling their labor.

entropea 7y ago
They include the cost of all of that in their prices, at least, someone who ran a good business would. This is not comparable to Uber, because drivers do not set their own prices. I also am pretty certain Uber takes much higher percent cut than eBay and Paypal/payment processing.
dmode 7y ago
Does it matter whether labor or capital is sold ? The ABC test doesn’t check for that. Uber drivers also use their own capital to buy cars. The major difference is setting prices
- jeremyjh 7y ago
  > The ABC test doesn’t check for that. It does. It is labor law, and it applies to labor, not to transactions performed in a market place. >The ruling and the bill instruct businesses to use the so-called “ABC test” to figure out whether a worker is an employee. > (b) is doing work that isn’t central to the company’s business Workers doing work.

manfredo 7y ago

> I met a Uber driver the other day who drives 5000 miles per month. Clearly that is close to exploitation. Averaging 30 miles an hour, that's 166 hours a month.

stevesimmons 7y ago
How did you know 30mph is the right average speed? For instance, average driving speed in Manhattan in 2016 was 7.1mph. Your working time calculation also needs to consider loading and unloading passengers, gaps between fares, time for comfort breaks, refueling, vehicle cleaning and maintenance, etc.
- manfredo 7y ago
  > How did you know 30mph is the right average speed? For instance, average driving speed in Manhattan in 2016 was 7.1mph. And on the highway, it's 60-80 MPH. It could very well be under 160 hours. > Your working time calculation also needs to consider loading and unloading passengers, gaps between fares, time for comfort breaks, refueling, vehicle cleaning and maintenance, etc. True, and the 5000 mile count also needs to subtract driving for personal reasons. Judging by the previous comment the figure of 5000 was not limited to miles specifically driven for Uber.
dmode 7y ago
166 hours of driving can mean 8 hrs of driving for 20 days. This is very different than 8 hrs of sitting in front of a computer. I get tired driving 2 hrs every day back and forth from work. Not to mention that that hours can be way more in an urban area as most rides are short distances and traffic is very tight
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Yeah, but that's what it is to be a full-time driver. It's no different than commercial truck drivers (long-haul or short haul), taxi drivers, limousine drivers, or really just anyone else whose job amounts to "driver".
7y ago

sokoloff 7y ago

> I met a Uber driver the other day who drives 5000 miles per month. Clearly that is close to exploitation. It seems to me like you skipped a step or two in your explanation there. What inherently makes driving 5000 miles per month exploitation? There are many paid driving gigs (some employee, some owner-operator) that drive at least that much and I'm not sure I'd classify any of them as exploitative.