4 ms·

It does go both ways, though. I'm a software developer/consultant and am sympathetic to the video but lets look at from the other side. Most pro level consulti

by trotsky 16y ago

It does go both ways, though. I'm a software developer/consultant and am sympathetic to the video but lets look at from the other side. Most pro level consulting teams work open ended time and materials contracts. There's very good reasons for this, but this definitely gets abused to deliver a project that was never expected to come in on budget. It also exposes the client to the effects of bad management or other incompetence without a lot of redress. Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double. The hard bargaining can go both ways too. I've included what I considered ridiculous rates in a first draft of a proposal (to give me room to negotiate) only to have them often accepted without a blink. In fact, I'm quite sure not having a standard rate card has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of extra money over the years. It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep. If you have a contract where's the after the fact negotiation come from anyway? Are they really willing to say then sue me?

kls 16y ago
It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep. I whole heartily agree with your summation. Fixed price just sets it off on the wrong foot in the first place. What I generally do, is provide my best estimate of what the project will take. I also agree if the project runs past my estimate by 15% that I reduce my rate to my bottom dollar rate. This way I am not handing it out for free, but they understand that I am not trying to run up the clock as well. The other thing we agree on is that any feature creep pushes the estimate back by the size of the feature. I have found that this works well, gives the customer a comfort level, and though it is my rock bottom rate, I am not eating costs left and right for a project that goes bloody. It cost me opportunity costs but not hard out of pocket costs which are far harder to swallow.
- tocomment 16y ago
  That's pretty smart.
  - kls 16y ago
    Well I don't know about smart, but it is practical. The problem with our profession and the reason the video while comical is not accurate. We get compared to other professionals a lot, like doctors or lawyers but the problem is unlike doctors or lawyers, each new job we do, is like performing a completely new procedure. I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The economies of scale are way out of whack to make those kind of comparisons. What other professional, in generally do is a reproduces group of processes. Our profession is unique in the fact that while there are similarities in what we do, each new project is wholly different (if you are doing custom apps). Now we do have stuff like Wordpress that make the simple stuff cookie cutter but for the most part people are not looking for that when they hire a custom software developer. They are looking for a new and novel product. The problem is that it is one of the only professions where product development is purchased from small and unsophisticated buyers. We really are a unique profession in which our product is still crafted and not manufactured. The problem is as a society we have gotten used to everything being manufactured so the expectation is that building software is akin to manufacturing where the reality is it is more akin to an art and just like art, their are few really talented artist to go around. Understanding, this goes a long way to helping customers see your value without alienating them by becoming defensive. I read the horror stories about bad clients all the time and sometimes wonder if it is a lack of educating the customer. I have had maybe 2 or 3 really bad customers in my 20 years. I just don't see how luck could produce those odds. I don't think I have a secret sauce and I am sure I have turned a good deal away that would have been bad customers, I just take time to understand their needs and to explain how software development works. Usually, if someone does not feel like they are getting screwed they are pretty agreeable. If someone comes to me and says I have 50k to build X and X looks like 40K to me, I will tell them I am not comfortable taking the gig, based on the fact if it overruns they don't have the reserve to see it through and that I do not want to leave a customer without a product at the end of 50k. They then either tell me what they can burn to, which is usually far more than needed or we both agree that they are putting their capital at risk. In which case, I try to work with them to trim features to get it to a 25k product. Double the estimate overruns are rare if one is even remotely decent at estimation.
angrycoder 16y ago
>Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double. In my experience... The client orders a hamburger. You give them a hamburger. The client really wanted a hotdog and expects you to eat the cost of the hamburger. Not a big deal in the real world, except in this example hamburgers cost tens of thousands of dollars.
- noonespecial 16y ago
  That or they force you to agree to a spec that absolutely will produce a burned hamburger, then refuse to accept it because its burned. Both you and the burger end up burned.

by trotsky 16y ago

kls 16y ago

It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep. I whole heartily agree with your summation. Fixed price just sets it off on the wrong foot in the first place. What I generally do, is provide my best estimate of what the project will take. I also agree if the project runs past my estimate by 15% that I reduce my rate to my bottom dollar rate. This way I am not handing it out for free, but they understand that I am not trying to run up the clock as well. The other thing we agree on is that any feature creep pushes the estimate back by the size of the feature. I have found that this works well, gives the customer a comfort level, and though it is my rock bottom rate, I am not eating costs left and right for a project that goes bloody. It cost me opportunity costs but not hard out of pocket costs which are far harder to swallow.

tocomment 16y ago
That's pretty smart.
- kls 16y ago
  Well I don't know about smart, but it is practical. The problem with our profession and the reason the video while comical is not accurate. We get compared to other professionals a lot, like doctors or lawyers but the problem is unlike doctors or lawyers, each new job we do, is like performing a completely new procedure. I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The economies of scale are way out of whack to make those kind of comparisons. What other professional, in generally do is a reproduces group of processes. Our profession is unique in the fact that while there are similarities in what we do, each new project is wholly different (if you are doing custom apps). Now we do have stuff like Wordpress that make the simple stuff cookie cutter but for the most part people are not looking for that when they hire a custom software developer. They are looking for a new and novel product. The problem is that it is one of the only professions where product development is purchased from small and unsophisticated buyers. We really are a unique profession in which our product is still crafted and not manufactured. The problem is as a society we have gotten used to everything being manufactured so the expectation is that building software is akin to manufacturing where the reality is it is more akin to an art and just like art, their are few really talented artist to go around. Understanding, this goes a long way to helping customers see your value without alienating them by becoming defensive. I read the horror stories about bad clients all the time and sometimes wonder if it is a lack of educating the customer. I have had maybe 2 or 3 really bad customers in my 20 years. I just don't see how luck could produce those odds. I don't think I have a secret sauce and I am sure I have turned a good deal away that would have been bad customers, I just take time to understand their needs and to explain how software development works. Usually, if someone does not feel like they are getting screwed they are pretty agreeable. If someone comes to me and says I have 50k to build X and X looks like 40K to me, I will tell them I am not comfortable taking the gig, based on the fact if it overruns they don't have the reserve to see it through and that I do not want to leave a customer without a product at the end of 50k. They then either tell me what they can burn to, which is usually far more than needed or we both agree that they are putting their capital at risk. In which case, I try to work with them to trim features to get it to a 25k product. Double the estimate overruns are rare if one is even remotely decent at estimation.

angrycoder 16y ago

>Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double. In my experience... The client orders a hamburger. You give them a hamburger. The client really wanted a hotdog and expects you to eat the cost of the hamburger. Not a big deal in the real world, except in this example hamburgers cost tens of thousands of dollars.

noonespecial 16y ago
That or they force you to agree to a spec that absolutely will produce a burned hamburger, then refuse to accept it because its burned. Both you and the burger end up burned.