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Amethyst project very badly needs to eat their own dogfood and make some non-trivial games. I have serious doubts this project will be used for anything intere

Amethyst project very badly needs to eat their own dogfood and make some non-trivial games. I have serious doubts this project will be used for anything interesting. The projects using it so far all look really really bad. I think the project is doing a lot interesting things. But I think trying to make a general purpose engine without a game is a BadIdea™. Source: have shipped multiple games on multiple custom engines

eridius 7y ago
What projects currently use Amethyst? I can't find any information on the site about current users.
- amethyst-engine 7y ago
  > What projects currently use Amethyst? I can't find any information on the site about current users. You can find a thread containing links to current projects on our forums: https://community.amethyst.rs/c/showcase https://community.amethyst.rs/c/showcase Evoli in particular is, as the poster above suggested, a game we are developing to force ourselves to use our own engine and drive development priorities. That being said, we are pre-1.0 and making a large, commercial project with Amethyst right now would be quite challenging. Our goal is to improve this significantly by the end of the year.
gameswithgo 7y ago
Do you have some specific doubts about the design or is this based purely on the lack of good looking examples? Anyway they plan to back a few showcase games so they are headed in that direction, this is one of them: https://github.com/khskarl/evoli https://github.com/khskarl/evoli I'm not so deterred by the lack of examples but I do have doubts about the design and how complex it seems. Maybe that pays off with bigger projects, we shall see.
pcwalton 7y ago
I don't like the gatekeeping "make games, not engines" attitude. People want to hack on projects that are interesting, and low-level game code is interesting. This isn't a case in which where people can get hurt or lose money if the project doesn't work, like Cryptocat or Mt. Gox or whatever. For a project like Amethyst, the worst thing that can happen is that we discover that certain techniques don't work well for games in Rust--which is itself a valuable result!
- Jare 7y ago
  None of that invalidates the core issue that "trying to make a general purpose engine without a game is a BadIdea™" ("...if you want it to be used by other people" implied) is a pretty strong belief among experienced game developers. OTOH there's Unity, who never developed a large game themselves, only demos and samples.
  - hurricaneSlider 7y ago
    > OTOH there's Unity, who never developed a large game themselves, only demos and samples. Possibly to the engine's detriment (though a cottage industry of add-ons in the assert store has helped bridge the most serious gaps)
    - hurricaneSlider 7y ago
      And I think the engine is generally heading in the right direction now.
- reitzensteinm 7y ago
  It really rubs me the wrong way when I see comments like parent telling people what they should do with their open source projects. However, as a game developer, using an engine without some substantial dogfooding (or orders of magnitude more use by third parties, ala Unity) is simply a bad idea. I have done it multiple times and each time it's burnt me. If you were trying to sell this as a commercial product, I'd be right there with the parent comment. Since it's not, I'll just take my hit of dopamine that I live in a world where cool stuff like this is being worked on, and add it to the list of stuff I'd like to play with.
  - amethyst-engine 7y ago
    >However, as a game developer, using an engine without some substantial dogfooding (or orders of magnitude more use by third parties, ala Unity) is simply a bad idea. I have done it multiple times and each time it's burnt me. Definitely don't bet your company/livelihood on an experimental tech. I will say that as a general philosophy, we are far more concerned about correctness and stability over rushing to get a product out to satisfy investors. Not having to try to convince people to buy an unfinished product to satisfy investors is one of the advantages of being a non-profit. We'll get to the point of being production quality, will just take some time.
EugeneOZ 7y ago
Maybe it's just lack of good designers/artists, not a code quality issue.
- amethyst-engine 7y ago
  We do suffer from a bit of a dearth of artists/modelers. We recently had one join who is doing a lot of nice work to the editor UI. There's a few of us who have quite a bit of experience in the gaming industry and with game design, both from working at studios and game engine companies. We could definitely use more, if anyone is interested. =)
amethyst-engine 7y ago
> Source: have shipped multiple games on multiple custom engines Nice! Which games? We'd certainly welcome more feedback from experienced game devs and engine devs on what they want in a game engine.
pinbender 7y ago
Having been a developer of multiple custom engines (including but not limited to engines intended for external licensing in AAA game development), I can confirm that the problems that must be solved for small scale projects are dramatically different from the problems encountered at medium and large scale. If Amethyst is intended to be a tool for single-developer, small game development, that's great. Carry on with what you are doing. If you want it to be used for bigger projects, you won't know what you don't know until you actually try to make that big project. (I assume that Forrest is posting here because he sees potential in your technology, and wants to encourage you to reach that potential. The internet is littered with the remains of game engines with big potential that didn't survive because they didn't take this lesson into account.)
- amethyst-engine 7y ago
  Yup, this is true. There are a few of us on the team who work/have worked on some very well known engines (and their ecosystems) meant for AAA game development. =) The more challenging thing at the moment is developing or improving fundamental libraries/tools in Rust, which is a fairly young language. Being able to leverage existing C/C++ libraries helps, but in general isn't what we prefer to do. >I assume that Forrest is posting here because he sees potential in your technology, and wants to encourage you to reach that potential. Any and all feedback is welcome, as are contributions.
- forrestthewoods 7y ago
  Life is all about trade-offs. There’s no such thing as average. (https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...) If you try to build an engine for the general use case then you’re likely to make an engine that isn’t good enough for anyone. My fear with Amethyst is that in 5 years it still won’t be good enough to make a commercial game of any genre. That’s the trajectory I see. But I don’t think it has to be that way! And I think dogfooding would go a long ways towards building an engine that is both useable and extendable.
amethyst-engine 7y ago
A more definitive statement regarding projects using Amethyst: We have several so-called showcase games lined up. The only official one at the moment is Evoli: https://github.com/amethyst/evoli https://github.com/amethyst/evoli It will have its first stable v0.1.0 MVP release in a matter of days. It’s designed to be easy to contribute to at scale so it’s a very suitable starter project for anyone looking to tinker with Amethyst in its current state. As mentioned, the engine itself is still considered pre-release, but games like Evoli and more to come will demonstrate where Amethyst already shines, e.g. games that can take especially good advantage of the engine’s very close marriage to the specs ECS.

eridius 7y ago

What projects currently use Amethyst? I can't find any information on the site about current users.

amethyst-engine 7y ago
> What projects currently use Amethyst? I can't find any information on the site about current users. You can find a thread containing links to current projects on our forums: https://community.amethyst.rs/c/showcase https://community.amethyst.rs/c/showcase Evoli in particular is, as the poster above suggested, a game we are developing to force ourselves to use our own engine and drive development priorities. That being said, we are pre-1.0 and making a large, commercial project with Amethyst right now would be quite challenging. Our goal is to improve this significantly by the end of the year.

gameswithgo 7y ago

Do you have some specific doubts about the design or is this based purely on the lack of good looking examples? Anyway they plan to back a few showcase games so they are headed in that direction, this is one of them: https://github.com/khskarl/evoli https://github.com/khskarl/evoli I'm not so deterred by the lack of examples but I do have doubts about the design and how complex it seems. Maybe that pays off with bigger projects, we shall see.

pcwalton 7y ago

I don't like the gatekeeping "make games, not engines" attitude. People want to hack on projects that are interesting, and low-level game code is interesting. This isn't a case in which where people can get hurt or lose money if the project doesn't work, like Cryptocat or Mt. Gox or whatever. For a project like Amethyst, the worst thing that can happen is that we discover that certain techniques don't work well for games in Rust--which is itself a valuable result!

Jare 7y ago
None of that invalidates the core issue that "trying to make a general purpose engine without a game is a BadIdea™" ("...if you want it to be used by other people" implied) is a pretty strong belief among experienced game developers. OTOH there's Unity, who never developed a large game themselves, only demos and samples.
- hurricaneSlider 7y ago
  > OTOH there's Unity, who never developed a large game themselves, only demos and samples. Possibly to the engine's detriment (though a cottage industry of add-ons in the assert store has helped bridge the most serious gaps)
  - hurricaneSlider 7y ago
    And I think the engine is generally heading in the right direction now.
reitzensteinm 7y ago
It really rubs me the wrong way when I see comments like parent telling people what they should do with their open source projects. However, as a game developer, using an engine without some substantial dogfooding (or orders of magnitude more use by third parties, ala Unity) is simply a bad idea. I have done it multiple times and each time it's burnt me. If you were trying to sell this as a commercial product, I'd be right there with the parent comment. Since it's not, I'll just take my hit of dopamine that I live in a world where cool stuff like this is being worked on, and add it to the list of stuff I'd like to play with.
- amethyst-engine 7y ago
  >However, as a game developer, using an engine without some substantial dogfooding (or orders of magnitude more use by third parties, ala Unity) is simply a bad idea. I have done it multiple times and each time it's burnt me. Definitely don't bet your company/livelihood on an experimental tech. I will say that as a general philosophy, we are far more concerned about correctness and stability over rushing to get a product out to satisfy investors. Not having to try to convince people to buy an unfinished product to satisfy investors is one of the advantages of being a non-profit. We'll get to the point of being production quality, will just take some time.

EugeneOZ 7y ago

Maybe it's just lack of good designers/artists, not a code quality issue.

amethyst-engine 7y ago
We do suffer from a bit of a dearth of artists/modelers. We recently had one join who is doing a lot of nice work to the editor UI. There's a few of us who have quite a bit of experience in the gaming industry and with game design, both from working at studios and game engine companies. We could definitely use more, if anyone is interested. =)

amethyst-engine 7y ago

> Source: have shipped multiple games on multiple custom engines Nice! Which games? We'd certainly welcome more feedback from experienced game devs and engine devs on what they want in a game engine.

pinbender 7y ago

Having been a developer of multiple custom engines (including but not limited to engines intended for external licensing in AAA game development), I can confirm that the problems that must be solved for small scale projects are dramatically different from the problems encountered at medium and large scale. If Amethyst is intended to be a tool for single-developer, small game development, that's great. Carry on with what you are doing. If you want it to be used for bigger projects, you won't know what you don't know until you actually try to make that big project. (I assume that Forrest is posting here because he sees potential in your technology, and wants to encourage you to reach that potential. The internet is littered with the remains of game engines with big potential that didn't survive because they didn't take this lesson into account.)

amethyst-engine 7y ago
Yup, this is true. There are a few of us on the team who work/have worked on some very well known engines (and their ecosystems) meant for AAA game development. =) The more challenging thing at the moment is developing or improving fundamental libraries/tools in Rust, which is a fairly young language. Being able to leverage existing C/C++ libraries helps, but in general isn't what we prefer to do. >I assume that Forrest is posting here because he sees potential in your technology, and wants to encourage you to reach that potential. Any and all feedback is welcome, as are contributions.
forrestthewoods 7y ago
Life is all about trade-offs. There’s no such thing as average. (https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...) If you try to build an engine for the general use case then you’re likely to make an engine that isn’t good enough for anyone. My fear with Amethyst is that in 5 years it still won’t be good enough to make a commercial game of any genre. That’s the trajectory I see. But I don’t think it has to be that way! And I think dogfooding would go a long ways towards building an engine that is both useable and extendable.

amethyst-engine 7y ago

A more definitive statement regarding projects using Amethyst: We have several so-called showcase games lined up. The only official one at the moment is Evoli: https://github.com/amethyst/evoli https://github.com/amethyst/evoli It will have its first stable v0.1.0 MVP release in a matter of days. It’s designed to be easy to contribute to at scale so it’s a very suitable starter project for anyone looking to tinker with Amethyst in its current state. As mentioned, the engine itself is still considered pre-release, but games like Evoli and more to come will demonstrate where Amethyst already shines, e.g. games that can take especially good advantage of the engine’s very close marriage to the specs ECS.