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There needs to be some law against dark patterns because nothing is enforceable anymore. I'm not sure what can be done but I know that the death of our society

There needs to be some law against dark patterns because nothing is enforceable anymore. I'm not sure what can be done but I know that the death of our society is due to people/companies that are using loop holes and all sorts of tricks to game the system and undermine basic trust. It used to be that these "tricks" were used only sparingly but as more and more bad actors engage in this type of behavior it only makes it more normalized, and even causing more people to resort to the same behavior in order to survive. It's like bad drivers. If you have more and more people cutting cars exiting a freeway exit, people at the end will never make it off the freeway in a timely manner. Thus, people have to start being bad drivers themselves or else they will never get to their destination on time.

noir_lord 7y ago
What you are describing is a form of race to the bottom, if all you competitors (in business or life generally) get ahead and away with behaving unscrupulously the only rational course is to behave unscrupulously. What is particularly tragic is that all it takes to get this rolling is the perception that others are doing something and people will move to follow. Campaign attack adds, lying about diesel emissions, doctoring footage, falsifying compliance to environmental regulations and on and on. The perception is becoming that if you obey the rules you are a fool and that is horrifically dangerous position. Society by and large runs on a trust (but verify) model, I trust that when I walk down the street a random person isn't going to murder me but when that trust is eroded things go bad fast. Scares the crap out of me and I'm not sure what we could do at this point, more genuine openness from government/authorities, properly funded government watchdogs with independent oversight that kind of thing but they are expensive and easy for either side to rally against "big government"/"the man".
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  100% seconding your observation; I've been arguing something similar myself for a while too. That's why I'm totally serious when I say, ban the shit out of the advertising industry. Burn it to the ground, with legislative fire. Half of this crap comes from advertisers and ad-supported sites (the other probably mostly from airlines). This won't solve everything, but would be a nice start. There will always be scoundrels, but the current market dynamics seems to be pretty good at making manipulative and dishonest behaviour successful. We need to work on corrections that would promote honest businesses instead. As a secondary avenue, I wish we could somehow have a cultural shift. "Dark patterns" isn't a new phenomenon; its very name has been a commonly-known term for years now. And yet, instead of avoiding them, most successful companies seem to look at them as sources of inspiration. Hell, they're becoming a part of "UX standard practice" these days.
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    Turn on feature you really don’t want? <later> <yes> Combined with asking you constantly if you say no and never asking again if you say yes. I hate that shit and it creates a negative feeling for me towards whatever product is doing it, if I’m aware you are trying to trick me why would I trust you. It must work (for some set of work) though or they wouldn’t do it.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      > It must work (for some set of work) though or they wouldn’t do it. Tired people, busy people, people who don't understand any of it. I too sometimes just click through consent forms without reading, 'cause ain't nobody has time for this crap, but I'm happy with the knowledge that GDPR makes this mostly safe (and in cases where it doesn't, at some point I'll start sending data access and removal requests just out of spite).
      - rapind 7y ago
        This is a really good point about GDPR making it mostly safe. Making consumer's feel secure in the knowledge that they can ignore massive legal documents on some random website is a win in my book.

noir_lord 7y ago

What you are describing is a form of race to the bottom, if all you competitors (in business or life generally) get ahead and away with behaving unscrupulously the only rational course is to behave unscrupulously. What is particularly tragic is that all it takes to get this rolling is the perception that others are doing something and people will move to follow. Campaign attack adds, lying about diesel emissions, doctoring footage, falsifying compliance to environmental regulations and on and on. The perception is becoming that if you obey the rules you are a fool and that is horrifically dangerous position. Society by and large runs on a trust (but verify) model, I trust that when I walk down the street a random person isn't going to murder me but when that trust is eroded things go bad fast. Scares the crap out of me and I'm not sure what we could do at this point, more genuine openness from government/authorities, properly funded government watchdogs with independent oversight that kind of thing but they are expensive and easy for either side to rally against "big government"/"the man".

TeMPOraL 7y ago
100% seconding your observation; I've been arguing something similar myself for a while too. That's why I'm totally serious when I say, ban the shit out of the advertising industry. Burn it to the ground, with legislative fire. Half of this crap comes from advertisers and ad-supported sites (the other probably mostly from airlines). This won't solve everything, but would be a nice start. There will always be scoundrels, but the current market dynamics seems to be pretty good at making manipulative and dishonest behaviour successful. We need to work on corrections that would promote honest businesses instead. As a secondary avenue, I wish we could somehow have a cultural shift. "Dark patterns" isn't a new phenomenon; its very name has been a commonly-known term for years now. And yet, instead of avoiding them, most successful companies seem to look at them as sources of inspiration. Hell, they're becoming a part of "UX standard practice" these days.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  Turn on feature you really don’t want? <later> <yes> Combined with asking you constantly if you say no and never asking again if you say yes. I hate that shit and it creates a negative feeling for me towards whatever product is doing it, if I’m aware you are trying to trick me why would I trust you. It must work (for some set of work) though or they wouldn’t do it.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > It must work (for some set of work) though or they wouldn’t do it. Tired people, busy people, people who don't understand any of it. I too sometimes just click through consent forms without reading, 'cause ain't nobody has time for this crap, but I'm happy with the knowledge that GDPR makes this mostly safe (and in cases where it doesn't, at some point I'll start sending data access and removal requests just out of spite).
    - rapind 7y ago
      This is a really good point about GDPR making it mostly safe. Making consumer's feel secure in the knowledge that they can ignore massive legal documents on some random website is a win in my book.