5 ms·

I can predict the "Dark Patterns" right now. Giant Accept button and 6pt font opt-out link.

by rapind 7y ago

ourmandave 7y ago
Can they email you a "Change of Terms of Service" link (that nobody reads) that explains you auto accept if you continue using their service or some BS?
- PeterisP 7y ago
  No, the law as written states "if the customer gives the provider express, affirmative consent to such use, disclosure, sale or access." - ignoring an e-mail or any other 'auto accept' don't qualify as express, affirmative consent.
- qmarchi 7y ago
  Legally dubious as you can't prove wether someone has read an email or not. Official correspondence has to occur through verifiable means (ex: having them login to a portal, certified mail) in order to handle the approval in order to stand up to a challenge in court. I'm not a legal professional, and my advice shouldn't be taken as rule. Please consult an attorney.
  - anticensor 7y ago
    They consider you read emails after a set period of time, regardless of you (do/did/have) actually read. It works like that in Europe not the least.
johndubchak 7y ago
You assume they put an opt-out link on the button and not have it buried in either the Terms of Service, a customer request or an entirely separate EULA.
- QualityReboot 7y ago
  Just mail a letter to this PO box and we'll have your information removed in 8-12 weeks with no way to verify we did it!
  - sgrove 7y ago
    > “But the TOS and EULA were on display…” > “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” > “That’s the display department.” > “With a flashlight.” > “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” > “So had the stairs.” > “But look, you found the TOS and EULA, didn’t you?” > “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
emptyparadise 7y ago
They'll just make it a mandatory part of the ToS.
nostalgk 7y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20062303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20062303 Apparently it's opt-in.
- rapind 7y ago
  Yeah that's my understanding too. What I mean is the opt-in will be a Giant "Accept" button with a minuscule "No thanks" link somewhere on the bottom right.
president 7y ago
There needs to be some law against dark patterns because nothing is enforceable anymore. I'm not sure what can be done but I know that the death of our society is due to people/companies that are using loop holes and all sorts of tricks to game the system and undermine basic trust. It used to be that these "tricks" were used only sparingly but as more and more bad actors engage in this type of behavior it only makes it more normalized, and even causing more people to resort to the same behavior in order to survive. It's like bad drivers. If you have more and more people cutting cars exiting a freeway exit, people at the end will never make it off the freeway in a timely manner. Thus, people have to start being bad drivers themselves or else they will never get to their destination on time.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  What you are describing is a form of race to the bottom, if all you competitors (in business or life generally) get ahead and away with behaving unscrupulously the only rational course is to behave unscrupulously. What is particularly tragic is that all it takes to get this rolling is the perception that others are doing something and people will move to follow. Campaign attack adds, lying about diesel emissions, doctoring footage, falsifying compliance to environmental regulations and on and on. The perception is becoming that if you obey the rules you are a fool and that is horrifically dangerous position. Society by and large runs on a trust (but verify) model, I trust that when I walk down the street a random person isn't going to murder me but when that trust is eroded things go bad fast. Scares the crap out of me and I'm not sure what we could do at this point, more genuine openness from government/authorities, properly funded government watchdogs with independent oversight that kind of thing but they are expensive and easy for either side to rally against "big government"/"the man".
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    100% seconding your observation; I've been arguing something similar myself for a while too. That's why I'm totally serious when I say, ban the shit out of the advertising industry. Burn it to the ground, with legislative fire. Half of this crap comes from advertisers and ad-supported sites (the other probably mostly from airlines). This won't solve everything, but would be a nice start. There will always be scoundrels, but the current market dynamics seems to be pretty good at making manipulative and dishonest behaviour successful. We need to work on corrections that would promote honest businesses instead. As a secondary avenue, I wish we could somehow have a cultural shift. "Dark patterns" isn't a new phenomenon; its very name has been a commonly-known term for years now. And yet, instead of avoiding them, most successful companies seem to look at them as sources of inspiration. Hell, they're becoming a part of "UX standard practice" these days.

I can predict the "Dark Patterns" right now. Giant Accept button and 6pt font opt-out link.

by rapind 7y ago

I can predict the "Dark Patterns" right now. Giant Accept button and 6pt font opt-out link.

Can they email you a "Change of Terms of Service" link (that nobody reads) that explains you auto accept if you continue using their service or some BS?

PeterisP 7y ago
No, the law as written states "if the customer gives the provider express, affirmative consent to such use, disclosure, sale or access." - ignoring an e-mail or any other 'auto accept' don't qualify as express, affirmative consent.
qmarchi 7y ago
Legally dubious as you can't prove wether someone has read an email or not. Official correspondence has to occur through verifiable means (ex: having them login to a portal, certified mail) in order to handle the approval in order to stand up to a challenge in court. I'm not a legal professional, and my advice shouldn't be taken as rule. Please consult an attorney.
- anticensor 7y ago
  They consider you read emails after a set period of time, regardless of you (do/did/have) actually read. It works like that in Europe not the least.

johndubchak 7y ago

You assume they put an opt-out link on the button and not have it buried in either the Terms of Service, a customer request or an entirely separate EULA.

QualityReboot 7y ago
Just mail a letter to this PO box and we'll have your information removed in 8-12 weeks with no way to verify we did it!
- sgrove 7y ago
  > “But the TOS and EULA were on display…” > “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” > “That’s the display department.” > “With a flashlight.” > “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” > “So had the stairs.” > “But look, you found the TOS and EULA, didn’t you?” > “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

emptyparadise 7y ago

They'll just make it a mandatory part of the ToS.

nostalgk 7y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20062303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20062303 Apparently it's opt-in.

rapind 7y ago
Yeah that's my understanding too. What I mean is the opt-in will be a Giant "Accept" button with a minuscule "No thanks" link somewhere on the bottom right.

president 7y ago

There needs to be some law against dark patterns because nothing is enforceable anymore. I'm not sure what can be done but I know that the death of our society is due to people/companies that are using loop holes and all sorts of tricks to game the system and undermine basic trust. It used to be that these "tricks" were used only sparingly but as more and more bad actors engage in this type of behavior it only makes it more normalized, and even causing more people to resort to the same behavior in order to survive. It's like bad drivers. If you have more and more people cutting cars exiting a freeway exit, people at the end will never make it off the freeway in a timely manner. Thus, people have to start being bad drivers themselves or else they will never get to their destination on time.

noir_lord 7y ago
What you are describing is a form of race to the bottom, if all you competitors (in business or life generally) get ahead and away with behaving unscrupulously the only rational course is to behave unscrupulously. What is particularly tragic is that all it takes to get this rolling is the perception that others are doing something and people will move to follow. Campaign attack adds, lying about diesel emissions, doctoring footage, falsifying compliance to environmental regulations and on and on. The perception is becoming that if you obey the rules you are a fool and that is horrifically dangerous position. Society by and large runs on a trust (but verify) model, I trust that when I walk down the street a random person isn't going to murder me but when that trust is eroded things go bad fast. Scares the crap out of me and I'm not sure what we could do at this point, more genuine openness from government/authorities, properly funded government watchdogs with independent oversight that kind of thing but they are expensive and easy for either side to rally against "big government"/"the man".
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  100% seconding your observation; I've been arguing something similar myself for a while too. That's why I'm totally serious when I say, ban the shit out of the advertising industry. Burn it to the ground, with legislative fire. Half of this crap comes from advertisers and ad-supported sites (the other probably mostly from airlines). This won't solve everything, but would be a nice start. There will always be scoundrels, but the current market dynamics seems to be pretty good at making manipulative and dishonest behaviour successful. We need to work on corrections that would promote honest businesses instead. As a secondary avenue, I wish we could somehow have a cultural shift. "Dark patterns" isn't a new phenomenon; its very name has been a commonly-known term for years now. And yet, instead of avoiding them, most successful companies seem to look at them as sources of inspiration. Hell, they're becoming a part of "UX standard practice" these days.