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It's sort of weird to see this article framed as a progressive move against male bias when it seems to buy wholesale into a gender essentialialist worldview. T

It's sort of weird to see this article framed as a progressive move against male bias when it seems to buy wholesale into a gender essentialialist worldview. The piece even touches on it at the end, dropping a hand grenade in its last line: "There’s nothing anti-feminist about saying the neurobiology in the female brain might be different." - I'm not sure about this ^ That being said, I don't think the practice of using exclusively male mice in lab testing can be justified either. For the same reason: reject gender essentialism.

not_a_cop75 7y ago
You can't very well have it both ways. Either you recognize that there are real physical differences or you don't. If you don't recognize differences in the female, then what you are saying is that sex is a social construct and that sex reassignment surgery is a make believe product. In such a case, feminism is a fraud product for a fake difference that doesn't exist. Even if you can have a man and female that look physically identical in every way, and that might be possible, you still have to deal with the average distance between physical traits, which is quite real and measurable. And also the hormonal differences, and the differences caused by internal structures based upon this signaling which is often different even from an early age. Feminism, as I have seen it, has its basis in recognizing that differences in sex can sometimes lead to only small gaps in task performance, and thus the sexes in many ways are like for like. Generally true. Good luck being saved by an all female group of firefighters, however. I wish you all the best in that. But maybe that is the cost of "equality". More people die, and quality sometimes diminishes. I'll believe your rejection of gender essentialism when men are delivering babies. They can obviously produce milk, and that's already well documented. Edit: To be fair, you can absolutely have firefighters that are female and even more prepared to save lives than males. The problem is that a quota system encourages physical features rather than merit to be key indicators in hiring, which is absolutely the wrong thing. A serious weightlifter that was female could easily be an amazing fire fighter.
- misterbishop 7y ago
  You're making a basic mistake between gender and sex. Gender is a social category, and women as a social group are oppressed in various ways. A major task of feminism is to identify and end gender-based oppression. None of that depends on a biologically-determined notion of womanhood. You're also making an extremely lazy mistake about "average distance between physical traits". I would absolutely trust the capabilities of an all-female fire dept. Not least because people who get into firefighting are not average physical specimens, they have to meet some standard of physical fitness. If a man, woman or gender nonbinary person meet the requirements (btw i think we're both buying into an exaggerated notion of the physical fitness of firefighters), then what reason would I have for doubting their capabilities? Would you want to be saved from a burning building by a team of men with the build of a computer programmer? Gender is not the important question here, and that should be obvious.
  - viklove 7y ago
    That's the thing though -- usually the physical requirements are drastically different. I'm not sure about fire departments, but in the US military the physical requirements for women are laughable compared to those for men.
    - yters 7y ago
      Yes, compare the different pullup standard for men vs women in the Marine corps PFT: https://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness-requirements/usmc-physical-fitness-test https://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitne... "Pull-ups This event is not timed, your score is determined by how many pull-ups you can complete before dropping off the bar. This event is male Marines only. Flexed-Arm Hang This event is timed, your score is based on how long you can hang maintaining elbow flexion. This event is for female Marines."
      - anchpop 7y ago
        Without knowing more it's not obvious to me which is the higher standard. I can do a few pullups but probably couldn't hang for more than a minute.
- jrochkind1 7y ago
  > If you don't recognize differences in the female, then what you are saying is that sex is a social construct and that sex reassignment surgery is a make believe product. In such a case, feminism is a fraud product for a fake difference that doesn't exist Things that are social constructs still exist. Prison is a social construct, but it still sucks to be in one. Gender is a social context, for which in our actual society there are penalties and privileges.
  - Harvey-Specter 7y ago
    You're confusing the concept of a social construct with "things invented by humans".
  - everdrive 7y ago
    Additionally, simply because there may be social pressure towards some trait or value does not mean this value is completely arbitrary. (ie, "another, better society could do away with trait X, if only they were better educated!") For an easy example, think of traits such as bravery, love, trust, or honesty. There's much social pressure towards these traits (at least within some small groups) but that's not to say that these traits are totally arbitrary, just that social pressure is one of the primary mechanisms by which these innate traits are enforced.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
malvosenior 7y ago
> "There’s nothing anti-feminist about saying the neurobiology in the female brain might be different." > I'm not sure about this ^ Are you saying that it's feminist belief that there are no differences between male and female brains? It seems a lifetime of exposure to different hormones would make it obvious that there most likely are differences and as the article points out, denying that is doing women harm.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

not_a_cop75 7y ago

You can't very well have it both ways. Either you recognize that there are real physical differences or you don't. If you don't recognize differences in the female, then what you are saying is that sex is a social construct and that sex reassignment surgery is a make believe product. In such a case, feminism is a fraud product for a fake difference that doesn't exist. Even if you can have a man and female that look physically identical in every way, and that might be possible, you still have to deal with the average distance between physical traits, which is quite real and measurable. And also the hormonal differences, and the differences caused by internal structures based upon this signaling which is often different even from an early age. Feminism, as I have seen it, has its basis in recognizing that differences in sex can sometimes lead to only small gaps in task performance, and thus the sexes in many ways are like for like. Generally true. Good luck being saved by an all female group of firefighters, however. I wish you all the best in that. But maybe that is the cost of "equality". More people die, and quality sometimes diminishes. I'll believe your rejection of gender essentialism when men are delivering babies. They can obviously produce milk, and that's already well documented. Edit: To be fair, you can absolutely have firefighters that are female and even more prepared to save lives than males. The problem is that a quota system encourages physical features rather than merit to be key indicators in hiring, which is absolutely the wrong thing. A serious weightlifter that was female could easily be an amazing fire fighter.

misterbishop 7y ago
You're making a basic mistake between gender and sex. Gender is a social category, and women as a social group are oppressed in various ways. A major task of feminism is to identify and end gender-based oppression. None of that depends on a biologically-determined notion of womanhood. You're also making an extremely lazy mistake about "average distance between physical traits". I would absolutely trust the capabilities of an all-female fire dept. Not least because people who get into firefighting are not average physical specimens, they have to meet some standard of physical fitness. If a man, woman or gender nonbinary person meet the requirements (btw i think we're both buying into an exaggerated notion of the physical fitness of firefighters), then what reason would I have for doubting their capabilities? Would you want to be saved from a burning building by a team of men with the build of a computer programmer? Gender is not the important question here, and that should be obvious.
- viklove 7y ago
  That's the thing though -- usually the physical requirements are drastically different. I'm not sure about fire departments, but in the US military the physical requirements for women are laughable compared to those for men.
  - yters 7y ago
    Yes, compare the different pullup standard for men vs women in the Marine corps PFT: https://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness-requirements/usmc-physical-fitness-test https://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitne... "Pull-ups This event is not timed, your score is determined by how many pull-ups you can complete before dropping off the bar. This event is male Marines only. Flexed-Arm Hang This event is timed, your score is based on how long you can hang maintaining elbow flexion. This event is for female Marines."
    - anchpop 7y ago
      Without knowing more it's not obvious to me which is the higher standard. I can do a few pullups but probably couldn't hang for more than a minute.
jrochkind1 7y ago
> If you don't recognize differences in the female, then what you are saying is that sex is a social construct and that sex reassignment surgery is a make believe product. In such a case, feminism is a fraud product for a fake difference that doesn't exist Things that are social constructs still exist. Prison is a social construct, but it still sucks to be in one. Gender is a social context, for which in our actual society there are penalties and privileges.
- Harvey-Specter 7y ago
  You're confusing the concept of a social construct with "things invented by humans".
- everdrive 7y ago
  Additionally, simply because there may be social pressure towards some trait or value does not mean this value is completely arbitrary. (ie, "another, better society could do away with trait X, if only they were better educated!") For an easy example, think of traits such as bravery, love, trust, or honesty. There's much social pressure towards these traits (at least within some small groups) but that's not to say that these traits are totally arbitrary, just that social pressure is one of the primary mechanisms by which these innate traits are enforced.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

malvosenior 7y ago

> "There’s nothing anti-feminist about saying the neurobiology in the female brain might be different." > I'm not sure about this ^ Are you saying that it's feminist belief that there are no differences between male and female brains? It seems a lifetime of exposure to different hormones would make it obvious that there most likely are differences and as the article points out, denying that is doing women harm.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]