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I have little doubt BTC price is being manipulated. Its price was kept very low for the longest time so some very powerful organizations such as Bakkt (backed

I have little doubt BTC price is being manipulated. Its price was kept very low for the longest time so some very powerful organizations such as Bakkt (backed by the same people behind NYSE) could accumulate most of its market supply. At the moment the price is being artificially pumped up to build momentum until enough people from the public buy into it, then its price will once again start dropping faster than gravity. You often can attribute the exact reasons why a stock price went up, but for BTC it seems to be a complete mystery black box that even the most well-versed traders couldn't tell you the exact reasons why it went up. For stock price for example, you just knew in advanced even from last year that Beyond Meat's stock was going to be a hit. "What The Health", an anti meat industry and pro vegans documentary film, was a HUGE success last year and you could see from miles away everything was set up for this trend to become mainstream in 2019 as public sentiments were beginning to swing very positively towards it. For BTC however, everything just seems like a wild guess as no one could pin point exactly what drives its price.

jraedisch 7y ago
Could you elaborate on how one would keep an asset artificially low?
- sprash 7y ago
  You can't. What is more likely is that central banks that can print infinite amounts of their own money are buying up bitcoin in order to make it useless. Bitcoin is seen as competitor by central banks. The same happened to gold. As soon as one entity controlled the vast majority of gold the price ceased to be stable. Central banks already essentially destroyed gold as payment method. If central banks only sell 1% of their gold assets they increase the supply on the actual tradeable market so much that the price can be vastly manipulated. It would be smart if they do the same with bitcoin.
  - jraedisch 7y ago
    Why should all btc holders sell all their holdings, especially if price is steadily rising, since central banks are inflating money supply to buy more?
    - sprash 7y ago
      Because there is an artificial eternal demand for fiat. Fiat is created as debt with interest. This means the total debt can never be payed except with more debt. As soon as the state ceases to use force to collect debt, fiat will be worthless.
      - jraedisch 7y ago
        If I buy BTC and prices rise enough, I can sell for more than I paid, pay my debt and still keep some. In this scenario the majority of people who did not buy BTC or other less inflationary assets will suffer a lot more than me.
        sprash 7y ago
        If you can stomach the volatility and really like risk just go ahead and max out all your credit cards. Just don't be the guy who buys the top.
        jraedisch 7y ago
        Maxing out credit cards has nothing to do with it. Nobody is forcing you to do that. How much you buy is depending on you, and it should be an amount that you won't need in the coming ??? (4 seems to be a good guess) years.
  - Nursie 7y ago
    > Bitcoin is seen as competitor by central banks. Some 'coiners actually believe this. Wow. Most assessments of Bitcoin's potential impact on the economy come out saying it's negligible.
    - sprash 7y ago
      Oh really. Just wait until the police and military demands to be paid with bitcoin.
      - Nursie 7y ago
        Wow, it gets better! The police and the army are coiners now too? This is comedy gold.
        tromp 7y ago
        Better than comedy gold. Comedy bitcoin.
- jfengel 7y ago
  You can short it: borrow, sell, and then buy back when the price drops to pay back what you borrowed.
  - netwanderer3 7y ago
    Exactly! BTC futures or derivatives were precisely the tools that were used. With Bitcoin derivatives, essentially you don't even need to own any Bitcoin at the present to trade since it's a future contract. BTC price reached its peak at $20,000 on December 17, 2017 which happened to be the exact same date that the CME Group (Chicago Mercantile Exchange) became the first provider of Bitcoin derivatives to the market. Immediately BTC price started dropping down the next day and it went down all the way to $13,000 only within the next five days! Not much needed to be said after that. FYI: https://ethereumworldnews.com/report-crypto-platform-bakkt-used-bear-market-to-accumulate-digital-assets/ https://ethereumworldnews.com/report-crypto-platform-bakkt-u...
    - jraedisch 7y ago
      Then why isn't everybody shorting everything all the time?
      - netwanderer3 7y ago
        Because traditionally short positions carry more risks. You would only keep short positions for a long period of time if you have enormous amount of capital to sustain it. Short selling strategies and derivatives were often utilized to artificially deflate prices and conduct “bear raids” on vulnerable stocks.
      - jfengel 7y ago
        Shorting exposes you to effectively infinite upside risk. If you shorted one BTC at $4,000 a few months ago, today you'd have lost almost $5,000. If it goes to $20k again, you could be out $16,000. It's not like a regular asset, where the most you can lose is what you put in. You could lose literally everything. In the case of stocks, there is some limit in the sense that there's an underlying asset. There's some dispute as to the real long-term value of a share of Facebook or Netflix or Google, but ultimately there is one: your share entitles you to a piece of the profits of that company. It's still possible to lose a huge amount of money shorting stocks (say, you short a nearly-worthless stock in a drug company whose product is surprisingly approved), but it's very rare. With bitcoin, there's no underlying value to the asset. That makes it extremely volatile; there's no sound way to guess what it could ultimately be worth. Further, unlike stocks, there's no regulator trying to put a damper on price manipulation. (Basically, every dirty trick that was ever tried in the stock market now has rules against it, but they all get dusted off and tried again.) So shorting BTC puts you at significant risk. Some people are long on BTC because they think that ultimately there is a real value there, and happens to be higher than the current trading price. Their willingness to do so is what will ultimately determine that long-term price. Shorting it is betting that they're wrong... assuming you have the financial wherewithal to wait for the "long term". Or are willing to assume the risk that you're right in the short term, too.

jraedisch 7y ago

Could you elaborate on how one would keep an asset artificially low?

sprash 7y ago
You can't. What is more likely is that central banks that can print infinite amounts of their own money are buying up bitcoin in order to make it useless. Bitcoin is seen as competitor by central banks. The same happened to gold. As soon as one entity controlled the vast majority of gold the price ceased to be stable. Central banks already essentially destroyed gold as payment method. If central banks only sell 1% of their gold assets they increase the supply on the actual tradeable market so much that the price can be vastly manipulated. It would be smart if they do the same with bitcoin.
- jraedisch 7y ago
  Why should all btc holders sell all their holdings, especially if price is steadily rising, since central banks are inflating money supply to buy more?
  - sprash 7y ago
    Because there is an artificial eternal demand for fiat. Fiat is created as debt with interest. This means the total debt can never be payed except with more debt. As soon as the state ceases to use force to collect debt, fiat will be worthless.
    - jraedisch 7y ago
      If I buy BTC and prices rise enough, I can sell for more than I paid, pay my debt and still keep some. In this scenario the majority of people who did not buy BTC or other less inflationary assets will suffer a lot more than me.
      - sprash 7y ago
        If you can stomach the volatility and really like risk just go ahead and max out all your credit cards. Just don't be the guy who buys the top.
        jraedisch 7y ago
        Maxing out credit cards has nothing to do with it. Nobody is forcing you to do that. How much you buy is depending on you, and it should be an amount that you won't need in the coming ??? (4 seems to be a good guess) years.
- Nursie 7y ago
  > Bitcoin is seen as competitor by central banks. Some 'coiners actually believe this. Wow. Most assessments of Bitcoin's potential impact on the economy come out saying it's negligible.
  - sprash 7y ago
    Oh really. Just wait until the police and military demands to be paid with bitcoin.
    - Nursie 7y ago
      Wow, it gets better! The police and the army are coiners now too? This is comedy gold.
      - tromp 7y ago
        Better than comedy gold. Comedy bitcoin.
jfengel 7y ago
You can short it: borrow, sell, and then buy back when the price drops to pay back what you borrowed.
- netwanderer3 7y ago
  Exactly! BTC futures or derivatives were precisely the tools that were used. With Bitcoin derivatives, essentially you don't even need to own any Bitcoin at the present to trade since it's a future contract. BTC price reached its peak at $20,000 on December 17, 2017 which happened to be the exact same date that the CME Group (Chicago Mercantile Exchange) became the first provider of Bitcoin derivatives to the market. Immediately BTC price started dropping down the next day and it went down all the way to $13,000 only within the next five days! Not much needed to be said after that. FYI: https://ethereumworldnews.com/report-crypto-platform-bakkt-used-bear-market-to-accumulate-digital-assets/ https://ethereumworldnews.com/report-crypto-platform-bakkt-u...
  - jraedisch 7y ago
    Then why isn't everybody shorting everything all the time?
    - netwanderer3 7y ago
      Because traditionally short positions carry more risks. You would only keep short positions for a long period of time if you have enormous amount of capital to sustain it. Short selling strategies and derivatives were often utilized to artificially deflate prices and conduct “bear raids” on vulnerable stocks.
    - jfengel 7y ago
      Shorting exposes you to effectively infinite upside risk. If you shorted one BTC at $4,000 a few months ago, today you'd have lost almost $5,000. If it goes to $20k again, you could be out $16,000. It's not like a regular asset, where the most you can lose is what you put in. You could lose literally everything. In the case of stocks, there is some limit in the sense that there's an underlying asset. There's some dispute as to the real long-term value of a share of Facebook or Netflix or Google, but ultimately there is one: your share entitles you to a piece of the profits of that company. It's still possible to lose a huge amount of money shorting stocks (say, you short a nearly-worthless stock in a drug company whose product is surprisingly approved), but it's very rare. With bitcoin, there's no underlying value to the asset. That makes it extremely volatile; there's no sound way to guess what it could ultimately be worth. Further, unlike stocks, there's no regulator trying to put a damper on price manipulation. (Basically, every dirty trick that was ever tried in the stock market now has rules against it, but they all get dusted off and tried again.) So shorting BTC puts you at significant risk. Some people are long on BTC because they think that ultimately there is a real value there, and happens to be higher than the current trading price. Their willingness to do so is what will ultimately determine that long-term price. Shorting it is betting that they're wrong... assuming you have the financial wherewithal to wait for the "long term". Or are willing to assume the risk that you're right in the short term, too.