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One of the first articles I remember reading on HN was back in 2009. The gist of the article was that you shouldn’t praise your kids for being smart, praise the
by S_A_P 7y ago
One of the first articles I remember reading on HN was back in 2009. The gist of the article was that you shouldn’t praise your kids for being smart, praise them when they work hard. Rewarding hard work will better serve them in the long run since being smart will plateau at some point.
I have a 9 and 11 year old and I still bristle a little bit when my mom says y’all are so smart.
- Gikoskos 7y agoCan you find this article and post it please? I have to show it to someone
- lars512 7y agoIt sounds a lot like Carol Dweck's book Mindset, or one of the many articles about having a growth rather than fixed mindset.
- yoodenvranx 7y agoI think this article is about the study about that topic which started it all: https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/14/science/praise-children-for-effort-not-intelligence-study-says.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/14/science/praise-children-f...
- brlewis 7y agoThanks for the link. ''Praising children's intelligence, far from boosting their self-esteem, encourages them to embrace self-defeating behaviors such as worrying about failure and avoiding risks,'' This is arguably good advice regarding 5th graders. For adult software engineers, however, go ahead and praise them for being smart, since worrying about software failure and avoiding software risks is great.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoThe use of risk in both circumstances is probably too broad to make an assertion.
- ryanjshaw 7y agoTry searching for the "Pygmalion Effect on children ", it covers the general principle. (I suggest ignoring the Wikipedia article as it is very narrowly focused.)
- tmaly 7y agoI read the Grit book and it talked about having high expectations. I had never heard of this Pygmalion effect before. Thank you for sharing. Here is the article I just found on it https://www.wisdomtimes.com/blog/the-pygmalion-effect-at-home/ https://www.wisdomtimes.com/blog/the-pygmalion-effect-at-hom... If you can suggest a better one, I would be grateful.
- neogodless 7y agoHere are some articles from 2009 that mention Alfie Kohn, who wrote "Punished by Rewards." https://www.leanblog.org/2009/01/leanblog-podcast-57-alfie-kohn-punished/ https://www.leanblog.org/2009/01/leanblog-podcast-57-alfie-k... http://www.blog.montessoriforeveryone.com/are-kids-punished-by-rewards.html http://www.blog.montessoriforeveryone.com/are-kids-punished-... This article also looks like a likely candidate for the OP: https://www.parentingscience.com/praise-and-intelligence.html https://www.parentingscience.com/praise-and-intelligence.htm...
- misterdoubt 7y agoKohn goes a long way further. Don't praise your children just for "working" hard either -- that's just encouraging them to seek your external validation. Instead, help nurture your children's own curiosity, interest, and experience in the things that they do. Stop treating them like lab rats to be conditioned with praise, because we know exactly what happens when that praise inevitably ceases.
- brm 7y agoThat’s also how you’d raise a plough horse. The toughest thing in life for a smart person to figure out is often what’s worth working hard at and what they truly want. It seems as rare to find a person who has gone through the steps to decide if they truly want and value the outcome they’re working towards as it is to find a smart person who doesn’t apply themselves fully when they’re actually interested in, value, and want to accomplish or do something. Intelligence is a blunt instrument and should be taught to be used with the same consideration and care as you would any other potentially dangerous tool or device.
- rapind 7y agoI would argue it doesn't matter what you expend effort on as long as you're expending effort. IMO the only true rule in life is that you only value things you expend effort on. Beyond being able to afford the basic necessities it's all semantics. For example if efficiency interests you then working smarter could be your thing, but you'll still need to find more challenges to work on so that you're always expending effort. By all means, do this, but if your goal is to eliminate or reduce overall future effort you're fooling yourself if you think this will achieve some higher state of happiness. The greater the effort the more rewarding it is, regardless of whether others would consider it rewarding or smart effort. Once you internalize this it's basically the secret to life and you can throw out all of those self-improvement rags. Of course it's still a struggle in that you'll forget it constantly and have to correct course.
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- AllegedAlec 7y agoIt's what Pratchett said: “If you trust in yourself... and believe in your dreams... and follow your star... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
- dorchadas 7y agoThis has truly bit me in the ass. I was 'gifted' and never had to study in high school, or college really. But I was also lazy and it makes learning new things so much more difficult, at least without a structured school curriculum (I do think I might have adult ADHD too, but that's not what this is), despite wanting to make a career change. It's frustrating at times being stuck in that rutt. Oh, well, looks like a new masters for me next year.
- mcguire 7y agoOn the other hand, those who work hard and aren't lazy aren't having any fun either.
- whenchamenia 7y agoI would disagree completely. Good work is its own reward, as is the respect that comes with it after years of doing the right thing. Its not something you flirt with, its intergity.
- uhhhhhhh 7y agoDare I say you're both right and missing each others point? Doing a good job at everything you do personally and professionally is (like you say) integrity and drives self-respect. At the same time, the work you're doing can be menial/meaningless to you and thus may take time from tasks that have greater meaning, or it may even be mentally unhealthy (stress) or impact your relationships (long hours) that is sometimes required TO do a good job. Not everything we do in life is going to matter, I'm not arguing we need to have meaning in everything. However there is a point I think where people do need some sort of personal meaning/connection to some of what they're doing. For many people its family, others charity, volunteering or working in fields where they are passionate and connected to or any/all of the above/other. Too often people take the admirable approach of trying to do the best job they can at everything, and burn themselves out on tasks and jobs that don't provide them personal benefit in their lives otherwise in my opinion, its a cultural issue that seems to be getting worse.
- harryh 7y agoBe careful relying on studies in this area. The "growth mindset", like much of psychology over the last several decades, is subject to the replication crisis. At the very least, the size of the effect is almost certainly quite small.
- criddell 7y agoI think the point is that intelligence is a tool. By itself it doesn't get you terribly far (assuming you want to get somewhere). You need to apply it to something diligently. In other words, intelligence is necessary but not sufficient.
- peteradio 7y agoThat's why it's fucked up to translate these studies into advice saying "don't compliment your kids intelligence".
- 0815test 7y agoKids will value what you compliment. If you compliment their smarts, they will simply work towards always being "the smartest guy in the room", and making everyone else in that room constantly aware of this in the most obnoxious way they can come up with. If you compliment their work they'll strive to get recognition for that instead, which is a way more functional attitude in the longer run!
- criddell 7y agoIntelligence is like physical beauty. It probably wouldn't be terribly productive to tell your kids all the time how beautiful they are even though attractive people tend to be more successful in life.
- peteradio 7y agoWhy not compliment both so they know it's an important combination and to take advantage of natural gifts? Breaking rocks is hard work but that is not how I'd want my gifted child spending their time. I'm not saying kids should be showered with compliments either but if my kid genuinely surprises me with their wit I'm not going to be such a stiff piece of shit to think I'm doing them a favor by not complimentin them.
- BjoernKW 7y agoHard work in itself isn't necessarily valuable. Smart work is. It's vital to learn early on that you have to put in the work if you want to achieve anything at all. Merely being gifted or naturally good at something certainly is not enough. However, I'd say it's just as important to understand the purpose behind any kind of work and to be able to question how things are usually done. Achieving the same or better results with less work is what will set you apart.
- peteey 7y agoI challenge the distinction between hard work and smart work. You cannot be smart without hard work. Amassing knowledge and mental ability requires years of effort and work. It is easier for gifted/clever people, but not inherent. gifted =/= smart
- kaybe 7y agoI'd read that as 'pick your battles well'. You can work hard at things and get nowhere, you can work hard at other things and make a ton of progress, and these things can sometimes be estimated beforehand. You can keep churning out spaghetti code (hopefully the uncooked kind) or you can learn and apply better methods, for example.
- sbov 7y agoIf you're working in a bubble self reflection is definitely important. If you have colleagues hopefully they will help you.
- watwut 7y agoWhen people are too much hung on hard work, they do stupid innefective things. Like, studying that much that you sleep deprive yourself, long crunch in work, sleeping under table in work as proof of commitment etc. Training so much that you get injury from it.
- kouh 7y agoAre you sure? Doesn't work have value under any scenario, if only a residual educational value: a lesson for you and/or others? That would reduce "hard" and/or "smart" to multipliers of that value.
- amykhar 7y agoOn the flip side, you have to challenge them and give them the opportunity to work hard. I think schools get lazy with gifted kids. Gifted kids deserve to be challenged and put to the limits of their abilities the same as non-gifted children, but schools just don't do that. Tracking children by ability in the US has been labeled elitist. Funding often isn't there for enrichment programs. Parents are expected to provide enrichment for these kids outside of school, but it's not always possible either financially or time-wise.
- waterhouse 7y agoI'm just going to keep posting this when the subject comes up... "A 20-year longitudinal study has traced the academic, social, and emotional development of 60 young Australians with IQs of 160 and above. Significant differences have been noted in the young people’s educational status and direction, life satisfaction, social relationships, and self-esteem as a function of the degree of academic acceleration their schools permitted them in childhood and adolescence. The considerable majority of young people who have been radically accelerated, or who accelerated by 2 years, report high degrees of life satisfaction, have taken research degrees at leading universities, have professional careers, and report facilitative social and love relationships. Young people of equal abilities who accelerated by only 1 year or who have not been permitted acceleration have tended to enter less academically rigorous college courses, report lower levels of life satisfaction, and in many cases, experience significant difficulties with socialization. Several did not graduate from college or high school." https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ746290.pdf https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ746290.pdf
- amykhar 7y agoAcceleration has its benefits, but the ideal solution would be to accelerate the educational aspects for the child without accelerating the social side.
- nugget 7y agoI'd rank the options (from most ideal to least) as 1. Gifted kid with other gifted kids, with individualized coursework (ex: Davidson Academy in Reno, Nevada) 2. Gifted kid with other gifted kids, with standardized but accelerated coursework (ex: a g&t magnet program) 3. Gifted kid in general population, with individualized coursework 4. Gifted kid accelerated several grades ahead 5. Gifted kid remains in general population at normal grade level for age And 3, 4 and 5 are really toss-ups depending on the personality of the child
- sriku 7y agoI resonate with the bristling too and the struggle to determine when to appreciate is a daily affair due to the kids' diverse activities. My six year old experimented with somersaulting on rings today, barely did anything to start with and then worked it to routine in just a day during a holiday break when he articulated a series of variations at the end. Hard work at play! I don't even know whether to say anything. Don't want to spoil it. As for myself, I didn't consider myself gifted or intelligent though folks around me seemed to .. but mostly because they had no idea how much work I actually put in .. even just academically. So when I faced the same situation described in the article about facing peers also on top, I was rejoicing and enjoying it instead of despairing as seems to be a pattern. I attribute the main difference to an event that disconnected me from seeking external approval.