8 ms·

App Store, in their ios ecosystem.

by sundvor 7y ago

Veen 7y ago
Perhaps you should take a moment to review what a monopoly is.
- cabaalis 7y ago
  I believe OP is referring to the recent ruling allowing an antitrust lawsuit against Apple's app store to proceed. Not necessarily declared a monopoly yet, but also not declared not one. https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18617727/apple-v-pepper-antitrust-illinois-brick-supreme-court-case-loss https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18617727/apple-v-pepper-a...
  - sundvor 7y ago
    Yes. My point was that they are exhibiting the same type of behaviour that they're accusing Qualcomm of, and that's why I said that's the pot calling the kettle black; they are more than happy to embrace the same self serving behaviour when it serves them. The app store paid out $34bn to devs last year, so a very simple and probably naive calculation of 34/.7*.3 tells me they pocketed around ~$14.5bn in revenue from a total of $48.5bn. (source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/developer-apos-34-billion-earnings-002422266.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/developer-apos-34-billion-ear... ) That really ought to be big enough a pot to warrant my drawing the parallel. Furthermore, - They have absolute control and will shut down things whenever they want, such as parental control apps - https://www.macworld.com/article/3391361/apple-privacy-parental-control-apps-screen-time.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3391361/apple-privacy-paren... . - They claim you may install alternative apps, yet you may not set them as default handlers to replace Apple's native ones- https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/29/18644045/apple-defends-app-store-policies-antitrust-eu-spotify https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/29/18644045/apple-defends-ap... - They're playing hardball with Spotify, who are also using the word "monopoly": https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18530894/apple-music-monopoly-spotify-app-store-europe https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18530894/apple-music-monop...
    - scarface74 7y ago
      You realize those “parental control apps” gave a third party complete access to your child’s phone and were able to intercept all of your cbild’s communication. Do you think parents were aware of that? Are you okay with that? If you want to control your child’s phone, you are free to use MDM software where you control provisioning and the profiles.
- henryfjordan 7y ago
  I don't think things are as clear cut as you make them out to be. Apple says nobody can run apps on their phone without handing them a 30% cut. No side-loading, no other stores, nothing. There is very obviously a market for apps that Apple controls completely. Just because there are other app stores for other phones does not mean Apple doesn't have control over the entire market for iPhone apps. Markets can be narrowly defined in anti-trust law. Apple is fleecing iPhone users for that 30%. I don't think there's a good parallel case for this. DRM'd Keurig cups are the closest thing I could think of, but that never went to court that I know of. The case will be interesting: can you create a secondary market that you exert total control over? Can I bar anyone else from selling apps for my phone? Personally, I don't think Apple should be able to do what they are doing and I hope they lose. It would be a win for consumer rights and free market principles.
  - tzakrajs 7y ago
    Except that isn't what is happening. Side loading is allowed on iOS and is how Netflix is currently monetizing their iOS users.
    - henryfjordan 7y ago
      No, netflix isn't side loading apps. They are asking you sign up for the service on their site, not through the app to avoid having to pay Apple the 30%. A user still must get the app through the app store. There is no way to get an app on the phone that is not signed by apple..
      - johncolanduoni 7y ago
        You can now get developer certificates/provisioning profiles without paying the $100 you used to, just by having an Apple ID. You can replace the signature of an app given to you in binary form or build one given to you in source form via Xcode, which is also free.
    - tzakrajs 7y ago
      Sorry I misspoke. I should have said only that iOS allows side loading. I thought Netflix was utilizing this.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
village-idiot 7y ago
That’s like complaining that IKEA has a monopoly within IKEA stores.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > That’s like complaining that IKEA has a monopoly within IKEA stores. I feel like the fact that only Apple makes iOS devices is what's confusing people. Suppose that Tesla is the only company that makes electric cars and also the only company that has any electric car charging ports. (This is a hypothetical; in practice other companies offer both electric cars and charging ports.) They don't have a monopoly on cars -- you can go buy a Volkswagen diesel if you like, and "electric cars" isn't necessarily a separate market than "cars" at the time of purchase. But once you have an electric car, they do have a monopoly on charging ports, which is a separate market because you can't run your electric car on petroleum. This is easier to see if you add another electric car company but not another electric car charging company. So you go buy your Nissan Leaf but you still have to use a Tesla charging port with it. Clearly a monopoly on charging ports. But still the exact same charging port monopoly when they're the only company making electric cars. You can have a monopoly on iOS app stores even if you're the only company that makes iOS devices. Having fewer competitors in the other market doesn't make you less of a monopoly. Even the fact that they compete there at all -- if Amazon was the only company with an iOS app store, they would have a monopoly on iOS app distribution even if they don't even make iOS devices.
  - village-idiot 7y ago
    But the market isn’t iOS devices, the market is smart phones. And in that market Apple does not have a monopoly. If you start declaring that the market is the specific store or product, then literally every single product and service is a monopoly begging for state intervention. Can I sue Netflix because as the monopoly holder of the Netflix network they refuse to carry my home made videos? Is Spotify abusing their monopoly over Spotify by refusing to carry my karaoke? Should I be able to sue them in order to bend them to my will? Of course not. That’s patently ridiculous.
    - 7y ago
wil421 7y ago
Jeep doesn’t allow me to install my own apps on Uconnect. I guess they are a monopoly. Sirius, Apple, and Android are 3rd party products that are allowed on Uconnect but not my own.
- neckeri 7y ago
  Boy GM is really raking it in from UConnect. Everyone's complaining about their monopolistic practices. Last checking GM's share price it was barely a composition of their revenue.
  - briandear 7y ago
    Does their profit or lack of it change the point? Does it only matter if someone is making money?
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > Jeep doesn’t allow me to install my own apps on Uconnect. I guess they are a monopoly. Why wouldn't they be? Does someone else compete with them for distributing apps on Uconnect? Can you install Ford Sync apps on your Jeep?
  - wil421 7y ago
    Can I install android apps on my iPhone? Automakers like BMW have cut out people like Dinan when they locked down their firmware and refused to work with them. Alpine and Pioneer probably make replacements for Uconnect (iPhone) but it is not even close to the integration I get with my Jeep and Uconnect.
- Synaesthesia 7y ago
  Apple has the majority of the US market and elite market around the world.
jjtheblunt 7y ago
So they have a monopoly on selling their own product, essentially, I imagine would be the counter-argument?

App Store, in their ios ecosystem.

Veen 7y ago

Perhaps you should take a moment to review what a monopoly is.

cabaalis 7y ago
I believe OP is referring to the recent ruling allowing an antitrust lawsuit against Apple's app store to proceed. Not necessarily declared a monopoly yet, but also not declared not one. https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18617727/apple-v-pepper-antitrust-illinois-brick-supreme-court-case-loss https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18617727/apple-v-pepper-a...
- sundvor 7y ago
  Yes. My point was that they are exhibiting the same type of behaviour that they're accusing Qualcomm of, and that's why I said that's the pot calling the kettle black; they are more than happy to embrace the same self serving behaviour when it serves them. The app store paid out $34bn to devs last year, so a very simple and probably naive calculation of 34/.7*.3 tells me they pocketed around ~$14.5bn in revenue from a total of $48.5bn. (source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/developer-apos-34-billion-earnings-002422266.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/developer-apos-34-billion-ear... ) That really ought to be big enough a pot to warrant my drawing the parallel. Furthermore, - They have absolute control and will shut down things whenever they want, such as parental control apps - https://www.macworld.com/article/3391361/apple-privacy-parental-control-apps-screen-time.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3391361/apple-privacy-paren... . - They claim you may install alternative apps, yet you may not set them as default handlers to replace Apple's native ones- https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/29/18644045/apple-defends-app-store-policies-antitrust-eu-spotify https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/29/18644045/apple-defends-ap... - They're playing hardball with Spotify, who are also using the word "monopoly": https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18530894/apple-music-monopoly-spotify-app-store-europe https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18530894/apple-music-monop...
  - scarface74 7y ago
    You realize those “parental control apps” gave a third party complete access to your child’s phone and were able to intercept all of your cbild’s communication. Do you think parents were aware of that? Are you okay with that? If you want to control your child’s phone, you are free to use MDM software where you control provisioning and the profiles.
henryfjordan 7y ago
I don't think things are as clear cut as you make them out to be. Apple says nobody can run apps on their phone without handing them a 30% cut. No side-loading, no other stores, nothing. There is very obviously a market for apps that Apple controls completely. Just because there are other app stores for other phones does not mean Apple doesn't have control over the entire market for iPhone apps. Markets can be narrowly defined in anti-trust law. Apple is fleecing iPhone users for that 30%. I don't think there's a good parallel case for this. DRM'd Keurig cups are the closest thing I could think of, but that never went to court that I know of. The case will be interesting: can you create a secondary market that you exert total control over? Can I bar anyone else from selling apps for my phone? Personally, I don't think Apple should be able to do what they are doing and I hope they lose. It would be a win for consumer rights and free market principles.
- tzakrajs 7y ago
  Except that isn't what is happening. Side loading is allowed on iOS and is how Netflix is currently monetizing their iOS users.
  - henryfjordan 7y ago
    No, netflix isn't side loading apps. They are asking you sign up for the service on their site, not through the app to avoid having to pay Apple the 30%. A user still must get the app through the app store. There is no way to get an app on the phone that is not signed by apple..
    - johncolanduoni 7y ago
      You can now get developer certificates/provisioning profiles without paying the $100 you used to, just by having an Apple ID. You can replace the signature of an app given to you in binary form or build one given to you in source form via Xcode, which is also free.
  - tzakrajs 7y ago
    Sorry I misspoke. I should have said only that iOS allows side loading. I thought Netflix was utilizing this.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

village-idiot 7y ago

That’s like complaining that IKEA has a monopoly within IKEA stores.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> That’s like complaining that IKEA has a monopoly within IKEA stores. I feel like the fact that only Apple makes iOS devices is what's confusing people. Suppose that Tesla is the only company that makes electric cars and also the only company that has any electric car charging ports. (This is a hypothetical; in practice other companies offer both electric cars and charging ports.) They don't have a monopoly on cars -- you can go buy a Volkswagen diesel if you like, and "electric cars" isn't necessarily a separate market than "cars" at the time of purchase. But once you have an electric car, they do have a monopoly on charging ports, which is a separate market because you can't run your electric car on petroleum. This is easier to see if you add another electric car company but not another electric car charging company. So you go buy your Nissan Leaf but you still have to use a Tesla charging port with it. Clearly a monopoly on charging ports. But still the exact same charging port monopoly when they're the only company making electric cars. You can have a monopoly on iOS app stores even if you're the only company that makes iOS devices. Having fewer competitors in the other market doesn't make you less of a monopoly. Even the fact that they compete there at all -- if Amazon was the only company with an iOS app store, they would have a monopoly on iOS app distribution even if they don't even make iOS devices.
- village-idiot 7y ago
  But the market isn’t iOS devices, the market is smart phones. And in that market Apple does not have a monopoly. If you start declaring that the market is the specific store or product, then literally every single product and service is a monopoly begging for state intervention. Can I sue Netflix because as the monopoly holder of the Netflix network they refuse to carry my home made videos? Is Spotify abusing their monopoly over Spotify by refusing to carry my karaoke? Should I be able to sue them in order to bend them to my will? Of course not. That’s patently ridiculous.
  - 7y ago

wil421 7y ago

Jeep doesn’t allow me to install my own apps on Uconnect. I guess they are a monopoly. Sirius, Apple, and Android are 3rd party products that are allowed on Uconnect but not my own.

neckeri 7y ago
Boy GM is really raking it in from UConnect. Everyone's complaining about their monopolistic practices. Last checking GM's share price it was barely a composition of their revenue.
- briandear 7y ago
  Does their profit or lack of it change the point? Does it only matter if someone is making money?
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> Jeep doesn’t allow me to install my own apps on Uconnect. I guess they are a monopoly. Why wouldn't they be? Does someone else compete with them for distributing apps on Uconnect? Can you install Ford Sync apps on your Jeep?
- wil421 7y ago
  Can I install android apps on my iPhone? Automakers like BMW have cut out people like Dinan when they locked down their firmware and refused to work with them. Alpine and Pioneer probably make replacements for Uconnect (iPhone) but it is not even close to the integration I get with my Jeep and Uconnect.
Synaesthesia 7y ago
Apple has the majority of the US market and elite market around the world.

jjtheblunt 7y ago

So they have a monopoly on selling their own product, essentially, I imagine would be the counter-argument?