6 ms·

Speaking only of intelligence modification. Everyone seems to be making a leap from high IQ --> dominating the world. Sure, your average world leader is probab

by Hasz 7y ago

Speaking only of intelligence modification. Everyone seems to be making a leap from high IQ --> dominating the world. Sure, your average world leader is probably has a higher IQ, on average, than her constituents. But this relationship is not causal, nor is it reversible. Simply making babies "smarter" is not going to result in them ruling the world in a few years and causing massive generational strife. If you'd like examples, I recommend checking out a MENSA meeting (Kidding, there's some perfectly nice people there). But the point still stands -- social standing, zip code, parental achievement, and even height are all important factors in success; intelligence is only one facet of a successful individual. This is, of course, assuming that we can freely increase intelligence with no repercussions -- are these high IQ individuals at risk of [schizophrenia](http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html), or other mental disease? I would also like to point out that the biggest real gains will come to those who move first. You can't be 5 sigma out when everyone else has the same gene modifications as you.

ZhuanXia 7y ago
>This is, of course, assuming that we can freely increase intelligence with no repercussions -- are these high IQ individuals at risk of [schizophrenia](http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html), or other mental disease? The whole "IQ is a curse" thing is mostly cherry picking. IQ basicly improves everything about a person: https://www.gwern.net/iq https://www.gwern.net/iq It is not associated with any illnesses, save for poor eyesight.
- Analemma_ 7y ago
  You're responding to an argument the parent didn't make. They weren't saying IQ is bad, they're saying it's not sufficient to rule. Charisma, sociopathy, parents' socioeconomic status, and physical attractiveness all seem to correlate with political power much more strongly than IQ does.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    And yet, all of those also correlate with IQ. (Well, I'm not sure about sociopathy)
    - earenndil 7y ago
      Having a high IQ increases your parents' socioeconomic status and makes you more attractive?
      - devoply 7y ago
        Tons of ugly nerds cry out in agony.
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        Other way around, really. IQ is partially heritable and your socioeconomic status is correlated with IQ, so your kids IQ will be correlated to your socioeconomic status. As for attractiveness... A lot of that correlation is caused by the lower end of the scale (genetic diseases are generally regarded as unattractive while also lowering IQ, correlations with poor nutrition, etc). But behavior is also a component of attractiveness, and (all else equal) IQ helps there.
    - Analemma_ 7y ago
      Sure, but my point is that those factors would not increase if we started selecting for IQ-related alleles, and so "ability to rule" probably wouldn't move much either.
namlem 7y ago
But we can edit genes related to other traits as well, such as charisma or emotional resilience.
CriticalCathed 7y ago
How about making your baby smarter, healthier, and more ambitious? Less fearful?
- gjs278 7y ago
  >smarter it may not be able to get along with anyone and get depressed. >healthier sigh. do you really need this explained to you? what cures one disease may cause another. >more ambitious and maybe it gets more aggressive when it doesn't get its way. >Less fearful oh yes, maybe it starts doing dare devil stunts and winds up dead trying to jump over roofs downtown. I know you're not supposed to be mean here but this is the best I can do.
- Balgair 7y ago
  > Less fearful? That is going to be a mixed bag, at best.
mc32 7y ago
Wait... why would people who govern countries and institutions being intelligent (or high IQ) be bad or undesirable? Would people rather have average or low IQ people dominating world leadership and institutions?
- gjs278 7y ago
  they won't even get elected if their IQ is too high
CM30 7y ago
Agreed 100%. People really overvalue intelligence when it comes to predicting who can take power or rule the world. And up to a certain point, there is certainly a correlation. Someone whose IQ is significantly lower than average is likely going to struggle to run an electoral campaign or gain popular support for their policies. But yeah, other factors outweigh this significantly. If you grow up in an extremely poor area with limited resources, then having an IQ that's twice the national average is probably not going to help that much. Even in places with a working political system, things like economic class, your parents, plain luck, etc have a huge impact on your chances. And heck, even then it's not guaranteed. People don't vote 100% rationally, and the politician who does well is often less the guy who knows most about the issues affecting the day/has a better academic pedigree and more the one average Joe can see themselves going out for a drink with. Even then there's still a good risk of this potential high IQ politician having the 'wrong' political views (which would make them virtually unelectable), the media not taking them to them well (which could destroy their reputation) or people in general just not liking them for whatever petty reason. As you say, merely making them smarter won't result in them ruling the world, and nor will improving every other characteristic/quality necessarily do the same.
- paulkon 7y ago
  If there was a gene for 'hustle' and 'street smarts' it would make a difference across the spectrum of social classes and environments.
Balgair 7y ago
I also feel that this is all so much hand-wringing in the end. We're just at the start of understanding how the genome and proteome interact, let alone the development from one cell to one trillion. Likely, barring some very extreme and barbaric live-human tests, we'll never really know how this all works. Gene editing will be mostly used in beneficial ways, not in these extreme ways. Diseases will be bred out of our species, cancers will be sequenced and then better chemo will be used against them (already happening), CRISPR CAS-9 will be used for sensory restoration techniques like elminating color-blindness and hearling loss. Sure, a few million eyes will be blue instead of brown, and sure, there will be a lot of taller people. But, due to the complexity of development, the genome, and the (correct) adversion to human experimentation, things as complex as 'smartness' or 'tenacity' or 'beauty' will not be modified in such extreme ways.
gwern 7y ago
> This is, of course, assuming that we can freely increase intelligence with no repercussions -- are these high IQ individuals at risk of [schizophrenia](http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html), or other mental disease? You realize that all of the studies cited in that link show that schizophrenia positively correlates with lower IQ, right, and that higher IQ is protective? (Which is correct, as the inverse correlation between IQ & schizophrenia has been documented for a very long time, and is re-documented on the genetic level now that we have schizophrenia PGSes.)

by Hasz 7y ago

ZhuanXia 7y ago

>This is, of course, assuming that we can freely increase intelligence with no repercussions -- are these high IQ individuals at risk of [schizophrenia](http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html), or other mental disease? The whole "IQ is a curse" thing is mostly cherry picking. IQ basicly improves everything about a person: https://www.gwern.net/iq https://www.gwern.net/iq It is not associated with any illnesses, save for poor eyesight.

Analemma_ 7y ago
You're responding to an argument the parent didn't make. They weren't saying IQ is bad, they're saying it's not sufficient to rule. Charisma, sociopathy, parents' socioeconomic status, and physical attractiveness all seem to correlate with political power much more strongly than IQ does.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  And yet, all of those also correlate with IQ. (Well, I'm not sure about sociopathy)
  - earenndil 7y ago
    Having a high IQ increases your parents' socioeconomic status and makes you more attractive?
    - devoply 7y ago
      Tons of ugly nerds cry out in agony.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      Other way around, really. IQ is partially heritable and your socioeconomic status is correlated with IQ, so your kids IQ will be correlated to your socioeconomic status. As for attractiveness... A lot of that correlation is caused by the lower end of the scale (genetic diseases are generally regarded as unattractive while also lowering IQ, correlations with poor nutrition, etc). But behavior is also a component of attractiveness, and (all else equal) IQ helps there.
  - Analemma_ 7y ago
    Sure, but my point is that those factors would not increase if we started selecting for IQ-related alleles, and so "ability to rule" probably wouldn't move much either.

namlem 7y ago

But we can edit genes related to other traits as well, such as charisma or emotional resilience.

CriticalCathed 7y ago

How about making your baby smarter, healthier, and more ambitious? Less fearful?

gjs278 7y ago
>smarter it may not be able to get along with anyone and get depressed. >healthier sigh. do you really need this explained to you? what cures one disease may cause another. >more ambitious and maybe it gets more aggressive when it doesn't get its way. >Less fearful oh yes, maybe it starts doing dare devil stunts and winds up dead trying to jump over roofs downtown. I know you're not supposed to be mean here but this is the best I can do.
Balgair 7y ago
> Less fearful? That is going to be a mixed bag, at best.

mc32 7y ago

Wait... why would people who govern countries and institutions being intelligent (or high IQ) be bad or undesirable? Would people rather have average or low IQ people dominating world leadership and institutions?

gjs278 7y ago
they won't even get elected if their IQ is too high

CM30 7y ago

Agreed 100%. People really overvalue intelligence when it comes to predicting who can take power or rule the world. And up to a certain point, there is certainly a correlation. Someone whose IQ is significantly lower than average is likely going to struggle to run an electoral campaign or gain popular support for their policies. But yeah, other factors outweigh this significantly. If you grow up in an extremely poor area with limited resources, then having an IQ that's twice the national average is probably not going to help that much. Even in places with a working political system, things like economic class, your parents, plain luck, etc have a huge impact on your chances. And heck, even then it's not guaranteed. People don't vote 100% rationally, and the politician who does well is often less the guy who knows most about the issues affecting the day/has a better academic pedigree and more the one average Joe can see themselves going out for a drink with. Even then there's still a good risk of this potential high IQ politician having the 'wrong' political views (which would make them virtually unelectable), the media not taking them to them well (which could destroy their reputation) or people in general just not liking them for whatever petty reason. As you say, merely making them smarter won't result in them ruling the world, and nor will improving every other characteristic/quality necessarily do the same.

paulkon 7y ago
If there was a gene for 'hustle' and 'street smarts' it would make a difference across the spectrum of social classes and environments.

Balgair 7y ago

I also feel that this is all so much hand-wringing in the end. We're just at the start of understanding how the genome and proteome interact, let alone the development from one cell to one trillion. Likely, barring some very extreme and barbaric live-human tests, we'll never really know how this all works. Gene editing will be mostly used in beneficial ways, not in these extreme ways. Diseases will be bred out of our species, cancers will be sequenced and then better chemo will be used against them (already happening), CRISPR CAS-9 will be used for sensory restoration techniques like elminating color-blindness and hearling loss. Sure, a few million eyes will be blue instead of brown, and sure, there will be a lot of taller people. But, due to the complexity of development, the genome, and the (correct) adversion to human experimentation, things as complex as 'smartness' or 'tenacity' or 'beauty' will not be modified in such extreme ways.

gwern 7y ago

> This is, of course, assuming that we can freely increase intelligence with no repercussions -- are these high IQ individuals at risk of [schizophrenia](http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000607.html), or other mental disease? You realize that all of the studies cited in that link show that schizophrenia positively correlates with lower IQ, right, and that higher IQ is protective? (Which is correct, as the inverse correlation between IQ & schizophrenia has been documented for a very long time, and is re-documented on the genetic level now that we have schizophrenia PGSes.)