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My Infant Daughter’s Life Shouldn’t Be a Variable in Tesla Autopilot's Beta
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- creaghpatr 7y ago>There are in fact other people on the road who haven’t given their tacit agreement to be beta testers, like my daughter. No shit, that would be the job of the parent. See: Pedophastry https://medium.com/incerto/pedophrasty-bigoteering-and-other-modern-scams-c84bd70a29e8 https://medium.com/incerto/pedophrasty-bigoteering-and-other...
- duxup 7y agoI don't think the parent agreed either, and certainly the other divers out there didn't.
- creaghpatr 7y agoThe parent is an adult and as such can make their own decisions about whether roads are too scary to drive on.
- duxup 7y agoI'm not sure that really jives with the statement in the article and really just boils down to "people can test what they want just don't drive then" and I don't think that is workable.
- andrewtbham 7y agoIf you're interested in the facts... https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://hcai.mit.edu/human-side-of-tesla-autopilot/ https://hcai.mit.edu/human-side-of-tesla-autopilot/
- newman8r 7y agoI'm interested in this stuff, but their "quarterly reports" are just ~3 sentence summaries. Is this the extent of these reports? (maybe I'm missing something). It would be helpful to see a list of the actual incidents they're using to calculate these numbers.
- _Codemonkeyism 7y agoAs mentioned several times on HN the comparison Tesla cites here is highly problematic.
- tlb 7y agoThere are no statistics that aren't problematic. Do you have a different stat in mind you think would be more fair? Such as controlling for city/highway miles?
- _Codemonkeyism 7y agoProbably every stat that isn't on the vendors marketing page.
- AndrewBissell 7y agoControlling for city/highway miles would be a great start. Then it would also be helpful for Tesla to compare itself against vehicles of a similar fleet age, price range (demographics make a big difference in the likelihood of a crash), and with similar modern safety features such as AEB. Of course, they are famously cagey with all of this data, always preferring instead to point to the "Autopilot miles vs. all miles driven" number. > “It’s obviously a misrepresentation,” said Hemant Bhargava, a UC Davis professor who specializes in technology management. “You’re only in autonomous mode in the best scenarios, so the number of crashes will be lower.” Source: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/studies-dont-support-elon-musks-autopilot-safety-claims https://www.theinformation.com/articles/studies-dont-support...?
- duxup 7y agoI'm not sure I would assume Tesla's POV here is necessarily "the facts" or that their safety site really informs much about the article.
- nsnick 7y agoThis is yet another hit piece by wallstreet short sellers. Autonomous vehicles may kill people occasionally, but far less frequently than human driven vehicles.
- anextomp 7y agoThe related articles at the bottom of the page make this bias laughably evident > Tesla Cost-Cutting Measures so Hardcore Employees Are Bringing Toilet Paper From Home > Tesla's Wall Street Romance Is Over > Florida Garage Fire Engulfs Tesla, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche, and More > Tesla’s Navigate on Autopilot 'Raises Serious Safety Concerns,' Consumer Reports Says > Tesla’s Walls Are Closing In As Musk Says Survival Requires ‘Hardcore’ Measures
- duxup 7y agoI don't think "related articles" painting a positive or negative light are necessarily going to indicate bias. This is akin to Tump's complaint that any given media outlet doesn't write enough positive articles about them... that wouldn't indicate a lack of bias even if they did write them 50/50 or 100/0.
- buryat 7y ago> Tesla Autopilot's Public Beta it's not production ready so it's a legit concern
- himeexcelanta 7y agoDefine “production ready”.
- berbec 7y ago"Production Ready" /prəˈdʌk.ʃən ˈred.i/ - noun - capable of telling the difference between a lane of traffic safe to drive upon and a concrete divider [1] 1: https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-sued-deadly-crash-autopilot https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-sued-deadly-crash-autopi...
- Causality1 7y agoSo his evidence the car was on autopilot is that the driver didn't have his hands on the wheel? Plenty of people do that in cars with no driver assist at all.
- ribosometronome 7y agoMy infant daughter's life shouldn't be a variable in a 15 year old learner's permit driver's beta.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mromanuk 7y agohe doesn't like contingency written down and measured, so he is advocating for hidden variables with randomized content: better keep the status quo and keep hitting with [drunk/sleepy/angry] people
- mLuby 7y agoI didn't sign up to be on the road with vehicles that can't control their speed, like Toyota's fatal "unintended acceleration" bug. Likewise I don't want to accept risk from drunk or distracted human drivers. But them's the brakes; Autopilot isn't dramatically different.
- devereaux 7y agoMaybe not in the beta, as mentioned in the article where there may have been a risk of imminent collision. But in the stable version? Yes it should. Your daughter is not more important than say the newborn twins that may be carried by another car that your car is about to hit. Otherwise, you believe that her existance is worth sacrificing N people over - or hell, even a few million people, and that ain't right.
- kod 7y agoAre you a parent?
- devereaux 7y agoNo. I decided not to have kids after realizing it came with the "risk" of making me prioritize their life over the life of many more human beings. I do not want to alter my utility function to favor people simply based on them having some of my genes, or having been educated by me (so I'm not a teacher either!) However, there are many wonderful parents out there - I've read some poignant stories about parents who went on with organ donation after their kid had a accident which caused irreversible brain damage. I couldn't picture myself doing that - which is why I was afraid the "risk" would be very real for me.
- JungleGymSam 7y agoFear is a powerful emotion and we shouldn't let it govern our lives. Statistics say that something bad will happen to someone at some point. Unless Teshla's are causing an _increase_ in car collisions, I see no reason to be this upset about it. The author's fear, _of something that didn't happen_, has gripped them. It would be one thing if his daughter were killed as a result of a collision with a Tesla, that was operating on AutoPilot, but it didn't even happen. This person shouldn't even by driving at all.
- AimForTheBushes 7y agoWhat's riskier, human or automated drivers? 391 Ohio Traffic Deaths YTD, all of which human caused.
- _Codemonkeyism 7y agoAutomated drivers. Consumer Reports says (May 2019) "In practice, we found that the new Navigate on Autopilot lane-changing feature lagged far behind a human driver’s skills. The feature cut off cars without leaving enough space, and even passed other cars in ways that violate state laws [...] As a result, the driver often had to prevent the system from making poor decisions." https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/tesla-navigate-on-autopilot-automatic-lane-change-requires-significant-driver-intervention/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/tesla-nav...
- JudgeWapner 7y ago> my daughter—as well as all of your children—could become just another anomaly in the path toward progress. Wouldja think of the children! I'm astonished that this argument-enhancing cheat-code still flies in 2019. It should be as obvious as "these N-units of clickbait". If he's so concerned about his daughter, why did he take her out on a freeway where several lives are lost per year? Why does he allow his precious daughter to breathe the smog from millions of automobiles in the LA Basin? I mean, think of the children! breathing all that NOx into their little-children lungs! We need regulation! The game is stacked against Autonomous tech since the detractors can point to any incident at which AT is at fault, but AT supporters can't point to the lives saved by safer decisions, faster reaction times, less emissions, zero emotion which serves to reduce stress and road rage incidents. But since those gains are invisible, and people are emotional, hit pieces like this will always be popular.
- snerbles 7y ago> I'm astonished that this argument-enhancing cheat-code still flies in 2019. I'm not. Preying on instincts is a classic tactic, one that will continue to work until the Allied Mastercomputer implements human extinction in a fit of machine-driven spite.
- polotics 7y agoI am sorry but you are invoking a strawman by claiming the article does a "think of the children" argument. This is one specific child in one specific case of narrowly avoiding harm. The example is one clear case of the technology not being ready, not being likewhat you describe it.
- notus 7y agoEven at an unready state it is better than human drivers. People literally text and drive while going 80 mph on a highway.
- whenchamenia 7y agoMaybe shitty human drivers breaking the law, but no, not better than actual focused drivers. Otherwise the ball is in your court for data. Quit perpetuating this baseless myth.
- eganist 7y agoProbably a hit piece, but if we're to analyze the policy changes required here to mitigate/adjust for risk effectively (and which can be compelled by any insurance company with worthwhile risk adjusters): - Insurance rate deltas for never-on v. ever-on "beta" automated driving features. This absorbs risk both for the insurance companies as well as on behalf of the driver. - Visible and blatant notices by companies trialing self-driving features that such features may result in insurance rate adjustments if used as the features themselves pose not-yet-quantifiable risk. - Mandatory reporting by car companies as to who enabled beta self driving features (accepted the risk) to send to insurance companies if needed e.g. in the event of a collision. Don't know which of these would happen first, but frankly, insurance should be leading the way on appropriately derisking beta-testing self-driving features since it's... probably an inevitability that these will be tried by drivers on public roads.
- Overtonwindow 7y agoSeems like a hit piece. We are al variables when it comes to making vehicles safer.
- _Codemonkeyism 7y agoConsumer Reports says (May 2019) "In practice, we found that the new Navigate on Autopilot lane-changing feature lagged far behind a human driver’s skills. The feature cut off cars without leaving enough space, and even passed other cars in ways that violate state laws [...] As a result, the driver often had to prevent the system from making poor decisions." https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/tesla-navigate-on-autopilot-automatic-lane-change-requires-significant-driver-intervention/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/tesla-nav...
- vkhn 7y agoWhile I don't disagree with regulation of this tech, this is ridiculous take. Please stop acting like autopilot is more dangerous than all the other drivers on the road not paying attention. If you really fear for her safety in a car, stop putting her in a car; or maybe put her in a Tesla because it's probably safer than the car you're driving.