4 ms·

>alternative source of information nice rebrand of "hate speech"

by davexunit 7y ago

nicky0 7y ago
The trouble with outlawing "hate speech" is: who gets to decide what is hate speech?
- davexunit 7y ago
  Ah okay, so the clear best move is to do nothing and let everyone say whatever they want on every web application that allows user comments. That policy surely won't be abused.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Who gets to define murder? All rules are made by fallible humans. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have rules.
  - nicky0 7y ago
    I never said we shouldn't have rules. I'm saying we should not have harmful rules. Rules which limit speech are harmful. This is because free communication of ideas is the foundation of a free and democratic soceity.
- sctb 7y ago
  No, let's please not douse ourselves with gasoline and try to relitigate this one. > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
asdf21 7y ago
Hate speech isn't even a valid legal distinction in the US, first of all.* Even philosophically, it's extremely hairy to define. Would you consider harshly criticizing Scientology and its adherents to be hate speech? How about harshly criticizing Islam? It's pathetic to me how nowadays any criticism of a group, no matter how valid, has been rebranded into "hate speech" by so many. Just because you criticize something don't mean you "hate" it. But lets say you do. Even if you genuinely hate something, what exactly is so wrong with that? There are aspects of certain organizations and philosophies that I hate -- should I not be allowed to express that without being condemned for it? *There are hate crimes, depending on mens rea (motivation) but anything that would be considered "hate speech" in many EU countries is generally fully protected in the US.
- davexunit 7y ago
  "I hate soup" - OK "I hate muslims" - not OK glad I could help clear up these muddy waters we're in.
  - asdf21 7y ago
    So we're not "allowed" to hate groups of people then? Please clear up whether it's "Ok" to hate the following groups, in your opinion: - I hate rapists. - I hate child pornographers. - I hate Scientologists. - I hate white people. - I hate Italians. - I hate businessmen. - I hate Monsanto. - I hate ISIS. - I hate Right-wingers. - I hate pedophiles. - I hate liberals. Please elucidate me on which of the above lines are "hate speech" and which are not, since you have this thing all figured out.
    - sctb 7y ago
      Please stop the battle. If you can't comment without attacking other community members then don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - asdf21 7y ago
        What part of my comment attacked anyone? Why is this disagreement a "battle"? I'll stop debating, if you want, but I find your framing to be a bit hyperbolic.
        sctb 7y ago
        > ...since you have this thing all figured out. This is a personal attack. Further, you've put words in the other person's mouth and that's a battle thing not a discussion thing. It breaks this guideline: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - deleted 7y ago
rmtech 7y ago
> "hate speech" nice rebrand of a view you disagree with and want to censor

>alternative source of information nice rebrand of "hate speech"

nicky0 7y ago

The trouble with outlawing "hate speech" is: who gets to decide what is hate speech?

davexunit 7y ago
Ah okay, so the clear best move is to do nothing and let everyone say whatever they want on every web application that allows user comments. That policy surely won't be abused.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
Who gets to define murder? All rules are made by fallible humans. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have rules.
- nicky0 7y ago
  I never said we shouldn't have rules. I'm saying we should not have harmful rules. Rules which limit speech are harmful. This is because free communication of ideas is the foundation of a free and democratic soceity.
sctb 7y ago
No, let's please not douse ourselves with gasoline and try to relitigate this one. > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

asdf21 7y ago

Hate speech isn't even a valid legal distinction in the US, first of all.* Even philosophically, it's extremely hairy to define. Would you consider harshly criticizing Scientology and its adherents to be hate speech? How about harshly criticizing Islam? It's pathetic to me how nowadays any criticism of a group, no matter how valid, has been rebranded into "hate speech" by so many. Just because you criticize something don't mean you "hate" it. But lets say you do. Even if you genuinely hate something, what exactly is so wrong with that? There are aspects of certain organizations and philosophies that I hate -- should I not be allowed to express that without being condemned for it? *There are hate crimes, depending on mens rea (motivation) but anything that would be considered "hate speech" in many EU countries is generally fully protected in the US.

davexunit 7y ago
"I hate soup" - OK "I hate muslims" - not OK glad I could help clear up these muddy waters we're in.
- asdf21 7y ago
  So we're not "allowed" to hate groups of people then? Please clear up whether it's "Ok" to hate the following groups, in your opinion: - I hate rapists. - I hate child pornographers. - I hate Scientologists. - I hate white people. - I hate Italians. - I hate businessmen. - I hate Monsanto. - I hate ISIS. - I hate Right-wingers. - I hate pedophiles. - I hate liberals. Please elucidate me on which of the above lines are "hate speech" and which are not, since you have this thing all figured out.
  - sctb 7y ago
    Please stop the battle. If you can't comment without attacking other community members then don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - asdf21 7y ago
      What part of my comment attacked anyone? Why is this disagreement a "battle"? I'll stop debating, if you want, but I find your framing to be a bit hyperbolic.
      - sctb 7y ago
        > ...since you have this thing all figured out. This is a personal attack. Further, you've put words in the other person's mouth and that's a battle thing not a discussion thing. It breaks this guideline: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - deleted 7y ago

rmtech 7y ago

> "hate speech" nice rebrand of a view you disagree with and want to censor