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> People who want space spaces who don't think mainstream platforms moderate enough, and the alt-right and free speech crowd. I've never really understood the

> People who want space spaces who don't think mainstream platforms moderate enough, and the alt-right and free speech crowd. I've never really understood the 'safe spaces' line of argument. I'm a 30 year old white male, and whenever I log onto YouTube I see nothing but recommendations trying to force me down the alt-right rabbit hole. Sure, Twitter has booted off a few high profile people on the alt right but I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that the debate on Twitter isn't pretty robust. Where's the censorship? And how attractive is a community of people only for people who have been kicked off larger platforms?

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
I tried Diaspora a while ago, and found the lack of "the center" very unappealing in discussions, and see some of the same today on Mastodon: People who end up on these alternate networks tend to be people who were either banned from mainstream or bullied off of them, so they tend to be the very far ends of the political spectrum on both sides. I remember when Wil Wheaton tried to join Mastodon, and some transgression he had against one gender identity or another led to him getting bullied off the network, despite him being... fairly bloody liberal. He just wasn't liberal enough for the crowd.
- r3bl 7y ago
  Not quite. He shared some blocklists that had a disproportionate amount of trans women during Gamergate. The grudge remained, his Mastodon account received a lot of reports, and the admin of the instance he chose decided that he doesn't want to deal with that drama. Wil fully acknowledged that, and decided to stop using social media altogether. Also, there's no such thing as "not liberal enough". People on the far left aren't liberal — they don't believe in capitalism in the first place. Liberals are more center-left according to US standards, and center-right according to European standards. Further to the left are socialists, communists, and anarchists, not "super-liberals".
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    From what I recall, Wil created two accounts on two different instances without vetting either of them. The first account was on an instance run by a member of the same blocklist "friend group" that caused the Gamergate problems, so it wasn't just an old grudge, but an old wound reopened. The second instance was a non-US-based instance that looked like mastodon.social but was not (IIRC, the instance was Japanese run and moderated?), and the instance moderators had moderation trouble exacerbated by English not being their first language and moderation not being their full time jobs. I feel like Wil could have been successful on Mastodon had he found (or founded) an instance better aligned with his interests and moderation needs in mind (maybe even mastodon.social). Part of the problem of the whole debacle was that learning that any way but the hard way was likely next to impossible for someone like Wil, because Federation is complicated and hard enough to explain to technical people, much less someone with so many complicated moderation/community needs by nature of being a "celebrity" to begin with. (I still sometimes hope that someone like Wil would make the right technical connections to learn everything they need to know in order to thrive in the Fediverse and have joked that I would be happy to be such a guide if I were asked.)
village-idiot 7y ago
> I've never really understood the 'safe spaces' line of argument. Because it's a disingenuous argument, and it's always been about: 1. Making one side feel like the victim, which maintains coherence 2. Playing the refs
cannonedhamster 7y ago
The persecution complex among predominantly white males right now is high because there's a significant social change occurring that is causing those who've been disadvantaged the same privileges that white males have enjoyed alone for much of recent human history. It's a natural human reaction to care more about loss than to see the potential upside. We've also seen this numerous times before. The rise of Nazism was the natural response to the harsh restrictions of WW1 which is why the Marshall plans included Germany in the rebuilding opportunities. Many of those on the right address looking for power and utilize this gut reactionary response by those who feel disenfranchised for their own purposes. It's why fighting against a populist like President Trump with facts doesn't work. If reality don't fit the narrative, make a different reality. It's a very effective propaganda technique that usually requires an outside force to break. The US did something similar with the fight against communism and really had a hard time redefining Americanism once the Soviet Union collapsed. That's why the so called war on terror will never end. In order for America to be the good guys there needs to be bad people too. So in order for the alt-right to be the victim they either find villains on the left or they make them up. AOC is a perfect example of a toothless villain. She's a junior congresswomen with no real power, but she's constantly villainized far beyond the risk she poses to anyone on the right. Physically though she embodies the fears of white guys being replaced from their positions of power.
- 0815test 7y ago
  And yet, many SJW's and Berniebros are white dudes... Self-hating, perhaps? Or maybe the whole narrative that "the right is powerful because White guys are furious about having to give up their inherent power!" just doesn't stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny. It's blatant propaganda; fake news meant to demonize and discredit conservative thought, even to make it "radioactive" in the eyes of the (largely bandwagoning) general public. And these people have the gall to say that their political opponents are tantamount to Nazis? Sad and despicable!
  - cannonedhamster 7y ago
    I mean I'm not saying they're evil, it's just how history works. Those in power object to losing said power. Edit: Nor was I trying to make the claim that this is limited to any political party. It's a tool commonly used in populism.
scohesc 7y ago
See, alt-right is such a subjective term. I've seen people say that wearing a hat with "MAGA" on it is alt-right. I've also seen people say that opinions like "we want an entire race of people locked up and punished" is alt-right as well. While one is definitively magnitudes worse than the other, they're both put under the banner of "alt-right".
- boapnuaput 7y ago
  MAGA hats boldly proclaim a fascist resurrection myth, though; it's not an inaccurate banner to be put under! I can understand the unhappiness of many folks on the right. It's unpleasant to have one's beliefs placed under scrutiny.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    some bad people also wear tshirts. guess we gotta hate everyone who wears tshirts now right?
  - gubbrora 7y ago
    I see two propositions 1. Trump supporters are fascist. 2. Fascists should be sabotaged at every turn. If we link this up with the fact that the majority of white Americans are Trump supporters, it's hard to escape the conclusion that people are basically calling for persecution of white people.
    - village-idiot 7y ago
      What you’re proposing sure sounds like a logical fallacy to me. It sounds like you’re accusing others of having the following thoughts: 1. Trump supporters are fascists 2. I don’t like fascists 3. Trumps supports are overwhelmingly white 4. Therefore I don’t like white people because they’re fascists. This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle.
      - gubbrora 7y ago
        You understated 2. Its more correctly described as hatred. You inverted 3. I said majority of white people support Trump, not majority of Trump supporters are white. Finally you are overstating my conclusion. Here I refer to to the majority rather then all.
anon12345690 7y ago
do you want a safe space on youtube? twitter banned people for saying "learn to code" but not leftists saying they wanted to kill the covington kids. if you think theres no censorship then youre not paying attention.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

I tried Diaspora a while ago, and found the lack of "the center" very unappealing in discussions, and see some of the same today on Mastodon: People who end up on these alternate networks tend to be people who were either banned from mainstream or bullied off of them, so they tend to be the very far ends of the political spectrum on both sides. I remember when Wil Wheaton tried to join Mastodon, and some transgression he had against one gender identity or another led to him getting bullied off the network, despite him being... fairly bloody liberal. He just wasn't liberal enough for the crowd.

r3bl 7y ago
Not quite. He shared some blocklists that had a disproportionate amount of trans women during Gamergate. The grudge remained, his Mastodon account received a lot of reports, and the admin of the instance he chose decided that he doesn't want to deal with that drama. Wil fully acknowledged that, and decided to stop using social media altogether. Also, there's no such thing as "not liberal enough". People on the far left aren't liberal — they don't believe in capitalism in the first place. Liberals are more center-left according to US standards, and center-right according to European standards. Further to the left are socialists, communists, and anarchists, not "super-liberals".
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  From what I recall, Wil created two accounts on two different instances without vetting either of them. The first account was on an instance run by a member of the same blocklist "friend group" that caused the Gamergate problems, so it wasn't just an old grudge, but an old wound reopened. The second instance was a non-US-based instance that looked like mastodon.social but was not (IIRC, the instance was Japanese run and moderated?), and the instance moderators had moderation trouble exacerbated by English not being their first language and moderation not being their full time jobs. I feel like Wil could have been successful on Mastodon had he found (or founded) an instance better aligned with his interests and moderation needs in mind (maybe even mastodon.social). Part of the problem of the whole debacle was that learning that any way but the hard way was likely next to impossible for someone like Wil, because Federation is complicated and hard enough to explain to technical people, much less someone with so many complicated moderation/community needs by nature of being a "celebrity" to begin with. (I still sometimes hope that someone like Wil would make the right technical connections to learn everything they need to know in order to thrive in the Fediverse and have joked that I would be happy to be such a guide if I were asked.)

village-idiot 7y ago

> I've never really understood the 'safe spaces' line of argument. Because it's a disingenuous argument, and it's always been about: 1. Making one side feel like the victim, which maintains coherence 2. Playing the refs

cannonedhamster 7y ago

The persecution complex among predominantly white males right now is high because there's a significant social change occurring that is causing those who've been disadvantaged the same privileges that white males have enjoyed alone for much of recent human history. It's a natural human reaction to care more about loss than to see the potential upside. We've also seen this numerous times before. The rise of Nazism was the natural response to the harsh restrictions of WW1 which is why the Marshall plans included Germany in the rebuilding opportunities. Many of those on the right address looking for power and utilize this gut reactionary response by those who feel disenfranchised for their own purposes. It's why fighting against a populist like President Trump with facts doesn't work. If reality don't fit the narrative, make a different reality. It's a very effective propaganda technique that usually requires an outside force to break. The US did something similar with the fight against communism and really had a hard time redefining Americanism once the Soviet Union collapsed. That's why the so called war on terror will never end. In order for America to be the good guys there needs to be bad people too. So in order for the alt-right to be the victim they either find villains on the left or they make them up. AOC is a perfect example of a toothless villain. She's a junior congresswomen with no real power, but she's constantly villainized far beyond the risk she poses to anyone on the right. Physically though she embodies the fears of white guys being replaced from their positions of power.

0815test 7y ago
And yet, many SJW's and Berniebros are white dudes... Self-hating, perhaps? Or maybe the whole narrative that "the right is powerful because White guys are furious about having to give up their inherent power!" just doesn't stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny. It's blatant propaganda; fake news meant to demonize and discredit conservative thought, even to make it "radioactive" in the eyes of the (largely bandwagoning) general public. And these people have the gall to say that their political opponents are tantamount to Nazis? Sad and despicable!
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  I mean I'm not saying they're evil, it's just how history works. Those in power object to losing said power. Edit: Nor was I trying to make the claim that this is limited to any political party. It's a tool commonly used in populism.

scohesc 7y ago

See, alt-right is such a subjective term. I've seen people say that wearing a hat with "MAGA" on it is alt-right. I've also seen people say that opinions like "we want an entire race of people locked up and punished" is alt-right as well. While one is definitively magnitudes worse than the other, they're both put under the banner of "alt-right".

boapnuaput 7y ago
MAGA hats boldly proclaim a fascist resurrection myth, though; it's not an inaccurate banner to be put under! I can understand the unhappiness of many folks on the right. It's unpleasant to have one's beliefs placed under scrutiny.
- anon12345690 7y ago
  some bad people also wear tshirts. guess we gotta hate everyone who wears tshirts now right?
- gubbrora 7y ago
  I see two propositions 1. Trump supporters are fascist. 2. Fascists should be sabotaged at every turn. If we link this up with the fact that the majority of white Americans are Trump supporters, it's hard to escape the conclusion that people are basically calling for persecution of white people.
  - village-idiot 7y ago
    What you’re proposing sure sounds like a logical fallacy to me. It sounds like you’re accusing others of having the following thoughts: 1. Trump supporters are fascists 2. I don’t like fascists 3. Trumps supports are overwhelmingly white 4. Therefore I don’t like white people because they’re fascists. This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle.
    - gubbrora 7y ago
      You understated 2. Its more correctly described as hatred. You inverted 3. I said majority of white people support Trump, not majority of Trump supporters are white. Finally you are overstating my conclusion. Here I refer to to the majority rather then all.

anon12345690 7y ago

do you want a safe space on youtube? twitter banned people for saying "learn to code" but not leftists saying they wanted to kill the covington kids. if you think theres no censorship then youre not paying attention.