4 ms·

That's the point. I was in the infantry, am 6'2, and a guy. I don't have a problem with challenging folks who are tailgating. That is not the case for everyo

by ygjb 7y ago

That's the point. I was in the infantry, am 6'2, and a guy. I don't have a problem with challenging folks who are tailgating. That is not the case for everyone. Do you expect disabled folks to challenge tailgaters? What about physically small people? Setting aside the office dynamics around discrimination issues, how many people actually have the confidence to challenge an unknown person who is tailgating, knowing that there are practically no repercussions for allowing it, versus the fallout of alienating coworkers, potentially senior folks who might react negatively? It's one thing to say "don't let people tailgate", it's quite another to actually enforce a policy that says that unless you provide proper physical security onsite. During security awareness training I always stress that people know who to notify onsite as well as telling them that they can choose to challenge them directly if they encounter someone tailgating.

dahfizz 7y ago
You are getting really hung up on a very tiny edge case. No reasonable manager would punish you for being physically overpowered. That doesn't mean you should encourage people to ignore the security policy. 99.99% of the time, saying to the tailgater "you need to swipe" is enough. If you do work somewhere where people are physically trying to break in often, then you ought to have real security personnel.
- tbyehl 7y ago
  It's also a very tiny edge case that someone is trying to gain improper or unlawful entry to a workplace. It's not my job to put myself at risk in order to stop an intruder. It's not my job to play policy police with my co-workers, either. My employer recognizes this and uses mantraps to physically prevent tailgating at unguarded entries.
  - goerz 7y ago
    You don’t have to put yourself at any risk, but if you work in a secure facility, you are usually explicitly required by contract to “play policy police”. That is, report any security violation like someone jumping the turnstile, or not having a badge.
- komali2 7y ago
  It's not about being punished for being physically overpowered - it's about being a five foot 3 intern and having someone 6'1 250 lbs, in a suit and in a hurry, behind you, tailgating. The implications are enough to make it a shitty situation for such a person have to turn around and say "sorry person that looks c-suite, you can't come in with me."
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    If the company handles this correctly, the intern should feel empowered to tell the CEO to get a visitor badge. It’s also a safety issue. In a building evacuation, you should be able to account for every employee or visitor.
    - closeparen 7y ago
      Most sites control entry, not exit, so wouldn't be able to tell whether you had already left.
    - GFischer 7y ago
      Reminds me of Roger Federer being denied entry: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/not-so-fast-roger-federer-blocked-by-australian-open-security/ar-BBSrWr6 https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/not-so-fast-roger-fe... Rules are rules in Australia, even if you are a 20-times Grand Slam champion and one of the most recognizable people on the planet. Roger Federer found that out this week when he was blocked access to a locker room at the Australian Open by a security guard who took his job very seriously. A video circulating Twitter on Saturday showed the Swiss double defending champion stalled at the entrance for lacking his tournament accreditation.
  - wil421 7y ago
    I’ve had it done to me when I was hired and they explained we don’t allow tailgating here. Even though they know explicitly who I am, they are my bosses boss, I still need to swipe my badge on every locked door. I’ve done it to VP level and I’d do it to my CIO too. I’d be that guy who badged the CIO but I try to take basic security and company policy seriously. I’d like an intern who is professional enough to “challenge” someone. Not sure I would’ve at that time.
- chrismcb 7y ago
  Then why bother? If most of the time, asking is enough, then why bother at all? Because occasionally a bad actor wants in, I don't want to have to confront a bad actor.
whenchamenia 7y ago
But you can report that it happened, taking silent note of their details, demeanor,direction, description. Nobody is challenging little Stacey from accounting to take on an intruder barehanded.
wil421 7y ago
You politely say swipe your badge. If they refuse you walk over and get physical security. No need to physically challenge anyone.
- closeparen 7y ago
  Swiping on an already-unlocked door is meaningless.
  - kazinator 7y ago
    If there is a response at the terminal which makes it obvious that the pass is valid, and the action is also logged, I would say it has meaning.
    - closeparen 7y ago
      The only response that’s reliable across doors, sites, and institutions is the door actually unlocking, which you may or may not be able to discern when already opened. Do you know the beep and light pattern by heart for valid credential vs. recognized but unauthorized credential vs. bus pass at every door you use? Each one in my office is a bit different, my apartment is something else entirely, in college they were uniform within buildings but different across buildings. Electric mortise locks and strikes will click, though sometimes they are held in unlocked state for a few seconds so you won’t hear a second click, or the second click might be reverting to locked state. Depends on hardware and configuration, and maybe a what the person in front is doing with the handle, and when/whether the exit sensor trips. Different things on the door can make clicking sounds, they’re a bit different from each other, but pretty close. Magnetic locks, forget it. Sliding doors, forget it. I’m an engineer interested in security, I pay close attention to these systems, I’ve run their cabling and installed their admin panels, and I doubt I could tell even if I were actively paying attention.
mikeash 7y ago
We expect tiny people making minimum wage to ask thieves to pay for the cheese they’re shoplifting. This seems pretty minor by comparison. I wouldn’t expect any physical force to be used. If asking politely doesn’t work, call security. If they threaten you into letting them in, comply, then call security.
- solveit 7y ago
  > We expect tiny people making minimum wage to ask thieves to pay for the cheese they’re shoplifting. We don't actually. All sane employers have them record and report the incident and not engage, because petty shoplifting isn't worth somebody getting shot and it's built into the margins anyway. If the store is big enough, they may have "loss prevention", who are people who are very much not tiny and will verbally engage the shoplifter and pretend to be scary, but they are also not allowed to engage physically, because again, it's not worth somebody getting shot, and liability is going to be a nightmare even if they were stealing.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    I’ve heard of policies that cashiers are not to chase, let alone fight, but never that they’re not even supposed to ask someone to pay. Is that really true?
    - solveit 7y ago
      It might vary by chain, but everywhere I'm familiar with you're not supposed to accuse people of stealing, which has the same effect, perhaps for different reasons.
newnewpdro 7y ago
You're absolutely right and I find this thread completely absurd. If building security matters you implement mechanisms to enforce it, not burden all your employees with taking up the shortcomings. Tail-gating should be impossible if you care about security.

by ygjb 7y ago

dahfizz 7y ago

You are getting really hung up on a very tiny edge case. No reasonable manager would punish you for being physically overpowered. That doesn't mean you should encourage people to ignore the security policy. 99.99% of the time, saying to the tailgater "you need to swipe" is enough. If you do work somewhere where people are physically trying to break in often, then you ought to have real security personnel.

tbyehl 7y ago
It's also a very tiny edge case that someone is trying to gain improper or unlawful entry to a workplace. It's not my job to put myself at risk in order to stop an intruder. It's not my job to play policy police with my co-workers, either. My employer recognizes this and uses mantraps to physically prevent tailgating at unguarded entries.
- goerz 7y ago
  You don’t have to put yourself at any risk, but if you work in a secure facility, you are usually explicitly required by contract to “play policy police”. That is, report any security violation like someone jumping the turnstile, or not having a badge.
komali2 7y ago
It's not about being punished for being physically overpowered - it's about being a five foot 3 intern and having someone 6'1 250 lbs, in a suit and in a hurry, behind you, tailgating. The implications are enough to make it a shitty situation for such a person have to turn around and say "sorry person that looks c-suite, you can't come in with me."
- Spooky23 7y ago
  If the company handles this correctly, the intern should feel empowered to tell the CEO to get a visitor badge. It’s also a safety issue. In a building evacuation, you should be able to account for every employee or visitor.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Most sites control entry, not exit, so wouldn't be able to tell whether you had already left.
  - GFischer 7y ago
    Reminds me of Roger Federer being denied entry: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/not-so-fast-roger-federer-blocked-by-australian-open-security/ar-BBSrWr6 https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/not-so-fast-roger-fe... Rules are rules in Australia, even if you are a 20-times Grand Slam champion and one of the most recognizable people on the planet. Roger Federer found that out this week when he was blocked access to a locker room at the Australian Open by a security guard who took his job very seriously. A video circulating Twitter on Saturday showed the Swiss double defending champion stalled at the entrance for lacking his tournament accreditation.
- wil421 7y ago
  I’ve had it done to me when I was hired and they explained we don’t allow tailgating here. Even though they know explicitly who I am, they are my bosses boss, I still need to swipe my badge on every locked door. I’ve done it to VP level and I’d do it to my CIO too. I’d be that guy who badged the CIO but I try to take basic security and company policy seriously. I’d like an intern who is professional enough to “challenge” someone. Not sure I would’ve at that time.
chrismcb 7y ago
Then why bother? If most of the time, asking is enough, then why bother at all? Because occasionally a bad actor wants in, I don't want to have to confront a bad actor.

whenchamenia 7y ago

But you can report that it happened, taking silent note of their details, demeanor,direction, description. Nobody is challenging little Stacey from accounting to take on an intruder barehanded.

wil421 7y ago

You politely say swipe your badge. If they refuse you walk over and get physical security. No need to physically challenge anyone.

closeparen 7y ago
Swiping on an already-unlocked door is meaningless.
- kazinator 7y ago
  If there is a response at the terminal which makes it obvious that the pass is valid, and the action is also logged, I would say it has meaning.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    The only response that’s reliable across doors, sites, and institutions is the door actually unlocking, which you may or may not be able to discern when already opened. Do you know the beep and light pattern by heart for valid credential vs. recognized but unauthorized credential vs. bus pass at every door you use? Each one in my office is a bit different, my apartment is something else entirely, in college they were uniform within buildings but different across buildings. Electric mortise locks and strikes will click, though sometimes they are held in unlocked state for a few seconds so you won’t hear a second click, or the second click might be reverting to locked state. Depends on hardware and configuration, and maybe a what the person in front is doing with the handle, and when/whether the exit sensor trips. Different things on the door can make clicking sounds, they’re a bit different from each other, but pretty close. Magnetic locks, forget it. Sliding doors, forget it. I’m an engineer interested in security, I pay close attention to these systems, I’ve run their cabling and installed their admin panels, and I doubt I could tell even if I were actively paying attention.

mikeash 7y ago

We expect tiny people making minimum wage to ask thieves to pay for the cheese they’re shoplifting. This seems pretty minor by comparison. I wouldn’t expect any physical force to be used. If asking politely doesn’t work, call security. If they threaten you into letting them in, comply, then call security.

solveit 7y ago
> We expect tiny people making minimum wage to ask thieves to pay for the cheese they’re shoplifting. We don't actually. All sane employers have them record and report the incident and not engage, because petty shoplifting isn't worth somebody getting shot and it's built into the margins anyway. If the store is big enough, they may have "loss prevention", who are people who are very much not tiny and will verbally engage the shoplifter and pretend to be scary, but they are also not allowed to engage physically, because again, it's not worth somebody getting shot, and liability is going to be a nightmare even if they were stealing.
- mikeash 7y ago
  I’ve heard of policies that cashiers are not to chase, let alone fight, but never that they’re not even supposed to ask someone to pay. Is that really true?
  - solveit 7y ago
    It might vary by chain, but everywhere I'm familiar with you're not supposed to accuse people of stealing, which has the same effect, perhaps for different reasons.

newnewpdro 7y ago

You're absolutely right and I find this thread completely absurd. If building security matters you implement mechanisms to enforce it, not burden all your employees with taking up the shortcomings. Tail-gating should be impossible if you care about security.