7 ms·

I think this is going to be very controversial on the typical HN crowd: maybe too European, or too socialist. However here it goes. Some ten years ago I was co

by carlob 7y ago

I think this is going to be very controversial on the typical HN crowd: maybe too European, or too socialist. However here it goes. Some ten years ago I was convinced that private schools had a right to exist, but that they should never impact the funding of public schools, not even indirectly. Then I discovered that homeschooling was a thing in the US. Now I tend to believe that private schools should not be allowed to exist. School is far too important as a social mixer and a way to educate well-rounded citizens to leave it to the whims of parents. Parents already have a large enough impact on their kids, to let them take over 100% of their time. I also strongly believe that parents whose beliefs prevent their kids from getting the medical care they deserve (from refusing transfusions, to refusing vaccines) should get a hard look from social services. In general I don't believe that parenthood trumps some things that as a society we consider basic human rights. I think most people would agree with me when it comes down to issues like violence, exploitation and child labor, but I think this should extend to the access to healthcare and to a secular education.

surge 7y ago
You have a very narrow view of home schooling and only the worse cases. Take a look at the worse outcomes of public schooling and the averages in performance of home school kids versus public school kids. The social anxiety and other issues of kids going through a modern high school versus kids who socialize with mostly adults and socialize in sports programs, co-ops, or groups and learn to be self driven in learning. Public schools have a long way to go before they should be made mandatory. Until it is the very best solution for everyone, until it addresses every learning disability, the class sizes are smaller, teachers are paid better, classes track with a students ability and mental development and actually run in line with the latest in neuroscience and child development, have flexible hours so teenagers can sleep longer, put less on the kids when they go home so they have time for family activities and social interaction instead of 3-4 hrs of homework. Maybe when the solution isn't to medicate kids who don't learn by sitting still at a desk 6 hours a day with few breaks, elimination of recess and 20-30 minute lunch periods and few if any opportunities to "socialize" in the current schooling environment. When they teach problem solving and critical thinking, rather than rote memorizing for one standardized test at the end of year. If going to school was more like being an adult or put responsibilities on the student, like a college does, rather than treating the student population like they're in a low security prison. When it uses a system that wasn't developed for training factory workers and hasn't transitioned at all since then. When all the new money added to their budgets isn't siphoned up in administrative costs. When schools in many neighborhoods put kids in physical danger, involve gang activity and a good option simply isn't available to them because of their district. Then maybe we can talk about making it mandatory. Even then, the most rich and privileged still would have loop holes for tutoring their kids for something other than factory work. We would still need exceptions for kids who for a variety of reasons, medical or otherwise need to be at home, students who travel or work in acting/performance. Kids who are on specialized career tracks in schools geared towards where its best they learn very young (perforamance arts and music, CS) to compete in a global market. This idea that one education fits all is myopic and doesn't line up with the results that public schools produce thus far, and you want to take away any alternative. It would be like if the only healthcare option in the US was the VA, and no one was allowed to seek healthcare else where because some people make bad health decisions and go to homeopathic healthcare providers.
- ryanobjc 7y ago
  In America we've had decades of various people attacking public schools. So to look at the state of public schools and saying this is how things are, well you're ignoring a broad history of American conservatism taking objection to public schooling.
  - surge 7y ago
    Right, so fix that first, don't tell people they have to go to a certain school while you spend another 30+ years figuring it out. Also blaming it on just conservatism is silly, the bluest most democratic districts have some of the worst problems and solutions. Administrators keep thinking more of the same and blanket solutions address the needs of every kid. They forget that children are individuals. If this were the case, schools in very liberal areas like D.C., Chicago, LA, etc would be amazing and all producing the very best students given their funding and that the school board would be incredibly liberal/progressive. Talk to teachers, many of them that burn out or leave because of how bad its gotten home school their own kids because they've seen the sausage factory. Addendum (how bad its really gotten): https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-numbers-infographic https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-number... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/15/robots-schools-teaching-children-redundant-testing-learn-future?CMP=twt_gu https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/15/robots... https://news.berkeley.edu/2018/03/29/social-jetlag/ https://news.berkeley.edu/2018/03/29/social-jetlag/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13086098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13086098 https://ideapod.com/born-creative-geniuses-education-system-dumbs-us-according-nasa-scientists/ https://ideapod.com/born-creative-geniuses-education-system-... https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-violence-with-anti-bullying-video/ https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-vi... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/9isnux/teacher_says_she_was_fired_for_giving_zeroes_to/?st=jw9nli3f&sh=5c335f15 https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/9isnux/teacher_says_s... https://www.greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-why-i-have-to-quit-teaching-and-no/article_b42f4ffe-8d20-5956-8375-e41a2dc088ec.html https://www.greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-w... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/8smwb6/lawsuit_school_officials_forced_12yearold_who/?st=jw9nl0fb&sh=57d87bce https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/8smwb6/lawsuit_school... https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/7p69uk/teacher_arrested_for_asking_why_the/?st=jw9nj8b7&sh=c6e2cc93 https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/7p69uk/teacher_arre...
hawkesnest 7y ago
My children receive a secular homeschool education. They score well on standardized tests, interact well with their peers in extracurricular activities, and have healthy and meaningful relationships with other children and adults in their lives. I recognize that there are some in the homeschool "community" who are ruining their children (imho). For the sake of freedom, I accept that there are terrible people in the world who should not have reproduced, but for me to have rights they must have them too.
- carlob 7y ago
  I'm sure your kids are great, as you are probably well educated and wealthier than the average. Have you ever asked yourself what is the effect of removing your kids for public schools on the less fortunate? Let me put it another way: most children who have some medical doctor in their extended family don't really need to be visited regularly by a pediatrician. That doesn't really imply that most people who refuse to take their kids to a doctor are in their right mind to do so: a lot of them have some weird belief that might put their kids life at risk. And even if they weren't a majority, but a tiny minority, the law needs to protect that tiny minority even if that means being a bit overbearing on people who have doctors in their families.
  - surge 7y ago
    The less fortunate are the ones bullying other children, holding back the curriculum so that no child is left behind, putting someone else's child in harms way because of some undefined benefit to other's with worse parents isn't a fix. Fix the socio economic problems first so those kids have better parents. Don't put my kid in with them thinking its going to socialize other kids better rather than what normally happens is they get harassed and bullied by those who are hostile and the teachers have no power or are apathetic to confront. It creates greater harm putting good kids in with the bad then it does for the unfortunate but angry, hostile children. Same as it does putting a prisoner in for a non-violent crime with a bunch of felons, they're likely to come out a worse, more hardened criminal. You have this theory that it brings the other kids up, maybe slightly, but often it just brings everyone overall down. Collectivist mentality should be what's the greatest good.
adolph 7y ago
Don't stop there, there's more to discover--keep going to the Kibbutz! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_communal_child_rearing_and_collective_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_communal_child_rearing...
camelNotation 7y ago
> School is far too important as a social mixer and a way to educate well-rounded citizens to leave it to the whims of parents. Literally zero evidence for this. On average, kids that are homeschooled walk away with higher levels achievement and fewer psychological issues than their traditionally schooled peers. They integrate just fine into society. > I also strongly believe that parents whose beliefs prevent their kids from getting the medical care they deserve (from refusing transfusions, to refusing vaccines) should get a hard look from social services. This has nothing to do with homeschooling since many of us homeschool for secular reasons and aren't teaching our children fundamentalism or denying them vaccines/healthcare. > In general I don't believe that parenthood trumps some things that as a society we consider basic human rights. You don't have kids. Not that it invalidates your opinion, but you don't. I, as a parent, adapt to society and obey society just like I, as an individual, obey the law. But I am still a parent if the social order breaks down and the government disappears. My responsibilities as a parent precede my responsibility to society. As long as society is not abusive, they mesh well and that isn't an issue. But saying that parenthood doesn't trump society is a slippery slope you really don't want to go down. > I think most people would agree with me when it comes down to issues like violence, exploitation and child labor, but I think this should extend to the access to healthcare and to a secular education. Healthcare makes sense, I suppose. But "secular education" assumes the education received in a homeschool context is not secular. On the contrary, many homeschoolers are secular homeschoolers, especially in the upper middle class. I think you need to do more research on this before you start throwing out uninformed opinions.
- carlob 7y ago
  > Literally zero evidence for this. On average, kids that are homeschooled walk away with higher levels achievement and fewer psychological issues than their traditionally schooled peers. They integrate just fine into society. There is plenty of evidence of the contrary though, that kids born in families with low income and educational achievement do much much better when they are in a socially diverse school as opposed to a ghetto. Sure maybe homeschooled kids are slightly better off, but that comes at a huge cost for all the kids who have a single parent who works three jobs that will never be able to afford to homeschool them. > You don't have kids. You don't know that. > But I am still a parent if the social order breaks down and the government disappears. Every day hundreds of thousands of parents "break down" and government takes over for them. Government breaking down is a much rarer event. > "secular education" If you don't like the distinction between secular and religious, you can take any other strong belief. What if my parents are flat earthers? What if they are holocaust deniers? What if they hold some very strong political opinion? Or even what if they are some staunch atheists? They will just create a bubble around their kids.

by carlob 7y ago

surge 7y ago

You have a very narrow view of home schooling and only the worse cases. Take a look at the worse outcomes of public schooling and the averages in performance of home school kids versus public school kids. The social anxiety and other issues of kids going through a modern high school versus kids who socialize with mostly adults and socialize in sports programs, co-ops, or groups and learn to be self driven in learning. Public schools have a long way to go before they should be made mandatory. Until it is the very best solution for everyone, until it addresses every learning disability, the class sizes are smaller, teachers are paid better, classes track with a students ability and mental development and actually run in line with the latest in neuroscience and child development, have flexible hours so teenagers can sleep longer, put less on the kids when they go home so they have time for family activities and social interaction instead of 3-4 hrs of homework. Maybe when the solution isn't to medicate kids who don't learn by sitting still at a desk 6 hours a day with few breaks, elimination of recess and 20-30 minute lunch periods and few if any opportunities to "socialize" in the current schooling environment. When they teach problem solving and critical thinking, rather than rote memorizing for one standardized test at the end of year. If going to school was more like being an adult or put responsibilities on the student, like a college does, rather than treating the student population like they're in a low security prison. When it uses a system that wasn't developed for training factory workers and hasn't transitioned at all since then. When all the new money added to their budgets isn't siphoned up in administrative costs. When schools in many neighborhoods put kids in physical danger, involve gang activity and a good option simply isn't available to them because of their district. Then maybe we can talk about making it mandatory. Even then, the most rich and privileged still would have loop holes for tutoring their kids for something other than factory work. We would still need exceptions for kids who for a variety of reasons, medical or otherwise need to be at home, students who travel or work in acting/performance. Kids who are on specialized career tracks in schools geared towards where its best they learn very young (perforamance arts and music, CS) to compete in a global market. This idea that one education fits all is myopic and doesn't line up with the results that public schools produce thus far, and you want to take away any alternative. It would be like if the only healthcare option in the US was the VA, and no one was allowed to seek healthcare else where because some people make bad health decisions and go to homeopathic healthcare providers.

ryanobjc 7y ago
In America we've had decades of various people attacking public schools. So to look at the state of public schools and saying this is how things are, well you're ignoring a broad history of American conservatism taking objection to public schooling.
- surge 7y ago
  Right, so fix that first, don't tell people they have to go to a certain school while you spend another 30+ years figuring it out. Also blaming it on just conservatism is silly, the bluest most democratic districts have some of the worst problems and solutions. Administrators keep thinking more of the same and blanket solutions address the needs of every kid. They forget that children are individuals. If this were the case, schools in very liberal areas like D.C., Chicago, LA, etc would be amazing and all producing the very best students given their funding and that the school board would be incredibly liberal/progressive. Talk to teachers, many of them that burn out or leave because of how bad its gotten home school their own kids because they've seen the sausage factory. Addendum (how bad its really gotten): https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-numbers-infographic https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-number... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/15/robots-schools-teaching-children-redundant-testing-learn-future?CMP=twt_gu https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/15/robots... https://news.berkeley.edu/2018/03/29/social-jetlag/ https://news.berkeley.edu/2018/03/29/social-jetlag/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13086098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13086098 https://ideapod.com/born-creative-geniuses-education-system-dumbs-us-according-nasa-scientists/ https://ideapod.com/born-creative-geniuses-education-system-... https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-violence-with-anti-bullying-video/ https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-vi... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/9isnux/teacher_says_she_was_fired_for_giving_zeroes_to/?st=jw9nli3f&sh=5c335f15 https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/9isnux/teacher_says_s... https://www.greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-why-i-have-to-quit-teaching-and-no/article_b42f4ffe-8d20-5956-8375-e41a2dc088ec.html https://www.greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-w... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/8smwb6/lawsuit_school_officials_forced_12yearold_who/?st=jw9nl0fb&sh=57d87bce https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/8smwb6/lawsuit_school... https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/7p69uk/teacher_arrested_for_asking_why_the/?st=jw9nj8b7&sh=c6e2cc93 https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/7p69uk/teacher_arre...

hawkesnest 7y ago

My children receive a secular homeschool education. They score well on standardized tests, interact well with their peers in extracurricular activities, and have healthy and meaningful relationships with other children and adults in their lives. I recognize that there are some in the homeschool "community" who are ruining their children (imho). For the sake of freedom, I accept that there are terrible people in the world who should not have reproduced, but for me to have rights they must have them too.

carlob 7y ago
I'm sure your kids are great, as you are probably well educated and wealthier than the average. Have you ever asked yourself what is the effect of removing your kids for public schools on the less fortunate? Let me put it another way: most children who have some medical doctor in their extended family don't really need to be visited regularly by a pediatrician. That doesn't really imply that most people who refuse to take their kids to a doctor are in their right mind to do so: a lot of them have some weird belief that might put their kids life at risk. And even if they weren't a majority, but a tiny minority, the law needs to protect that tiny minority even if that means being a bit overbearing on people who have doctors in their families.
- surge 7y ago
  The less fortunate are the ones bullying other children, holding back the curriculum so that no child is left behind, putting someone else's child in harms way because of some undefined benefit to other's with worse parents isn't a fix. Fix the socio economic problems first so those kids have better parents. Don't put my kid in with them thinking its going to socialize other kids better rather than what normally happens is they get harassed and bullied by those who are hostile and the teachers have no power or are apathetic to confront. It creates greater harm putting good kids in with the bad then it does for the unfortunate but angry, hostile children. Same as it does putting a prisoner in for a non-violent crime with a bunch of felons, they're likely to come out a worse, more hardened criminal. You have this theory that it brings the other kids up, maybe slightly, but often it just brings everyone overall down. Collectivist mentality should be what's the greatest good.

adolph 7y ago

Don't stop there, there's more to discover--keep going to the Kibbutz! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_communal_child_rearing_and_collective_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_communal_child_rearing...

camelNotation 7y ago

> School is far too important as a social mixer and a way to educate well-rounded citizens to leave it to the whims of parents. Literally zero evidence for this. On average, kids that are homeschooled walk away with higher levels achievement and fewer psychological issues than their traditionally schooled peers. They integrate just fine into society. > I also strongly believe that parents whose beliefs prevent their kids from getting the medical care they deserve (from refusing transfusions, to refusing vaccines) should get a hard look from social services. This has nothing to do with homeschooling since many of us homeschool for secular reasons and aren't teaching our children fundamentalism or denying them vaccines/healthcare. > In general I don't believe that parenthood trumps some things that as a society we consider basic human rights. You don't have kids. Not that it invalidates your opinion, but you don't. I, as a parent, adapt to society and obey society just like I, as an individual, obey the law. But I am still a parent if the social order breaks down and the government disappears. My responsibilities as a parent precede my responsibility to society. As long as society is not abusive, they mesh well and that isn't an issue. But saying that parenthood doesn't trump society is a slippery slope you really don't want to go down. > I think most people would agree with me when it comes down to issues like violence, exploitation and child labor, but I think this should extend to the access to healthcare and to a secular education. Healthcare makes sense, I suppose. But "secular education" assumes the education received in a homeschool context is not secular. On the contrary, many homeschoolers are secular homeschoolers, especially in the upper middle class. I think you need to do more research on this before you start throwing out uninformed opinions.

carlob 7y ago
> Literally zero evidence for this. On average, kids that are homeschooled walk away with higher levels achievement and fewer psychological issues than their traditionally schooled peers. They integrate just fine into society. There is plenty of evidence of the contrary though, that kids born in families with low income and educational achievement do much much better when they are in a socially diverse school as opposed to a ghetto. Sure maybe homeschooled kids are slightly better off, but that comes at a huge cost for all the kids who have a single parent who works three jobs that will never be able to afford to homeschool them. > You don't have kids. You don't know that. > But I am still a parent if the social order breaks down and the government disappears. Every day hundreds of thousands of parents "break down" and government takes over for them. Government breaking down is a much rarer event. > "secular education" If you don't like the distinction between secular and religious, you can take any other strong belief. What if my parents are flat earthers? What if they are holocaust deniers? What if they hold some very strong political opinion? Or even what if they are some staunch atheists? They will just create a bubble around their kids.