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You can choose android. Or use the browser. If you want to sell in the Apple store, to Apple customers, you play by Apple’s rules. Same for Walmart or Amazon. T

You can choose android. Or use the browser. If you want to sell in the Apple store, to Apple customers, you play by Apple’s rules. Same for Walmart or Amazon. The house always has the upper hand. If you don’t want to sell to Apple customers, you can sell direct. There is really nothing unique about this. Anyone who has a business in retail is familiar with this problem. Want to sell on Amazon to Amazon customers? 8-20%. Want to sell in Walmart to Walmart customers? 12-17%. I wish it weren’t so, I really do. I’d be 15% richer overnight (probably more, as I’d be more cost competitive). If we decide that these sort of platform fees are illegal that would actually be HUGE and redistribute massive amounts of wealth from gatekeepers to smaller businesses.

jedberg 7y ago
> You can choose android. That's a false choice. That's like saying "don't like Walmart? Then leave the US and move to Europe!" The choices aren't equivalent. Each have their pluses and minuses, but the choice of Android or Apple should not dictate which retail outlet you get to use. In the real world, the consumer can chose the easy retail outlet (Walmart, Amazon) or they can choose a harder to use/access outlet, but at least they get the choice. With Apple, you can't choose your retail outlet, and that is by Apple's design.
- themagician 7y ago
  There is really no consumer issue here. If you want to use Spotify you can. You can download it and use it all you want on your Apple device. You can use it on the web, and you can even download an app. If you want to buy Spotify premium, you can! You can buy it directly from Spotify. If you want to buy it from the App Store you can! But Spotify has decided they don’t want to sell it on the App Store because Apple’s entitlements/platform fee/referral fee/whatever you want to call it is too high.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    > If you want to buy Spotify premium, you can! You can buy it directly from Spotify. Only if you independently know that it exists. They can't link out to their web store. Apple can though.
    - themagician 7y ago
      They can let people know it exists through any number of ways. They just can’t bundle that advertisement explicitly into product they sell on the App Store. But they actually do (in the radio spots). They just can’t do it in plain text. Again, this is can be true in other places in retail as well. Walmart may not be happy if I slap a giant sticker on my box that says, “Buy direct from us for less!” Sometimes the stores don’t care. Sometimes they do. If they don’t like it they reserve the right to kick you off the shelf or ask you to remove it.
      - jedberg 7y ago
        You keep conflating Apple's store with Apple's hardware. All of Apple's policies would be fine if they allowed any store on their hardware, because then other stores could have other policies. But since Apple doesn't allow other stores, it's not the same as regular retail, because the consumer can't choose another store with better policies.
        snowwrestler 7y ago
        No, you're conflating "Apple has a monopoly on app stores in general" with "Apple has a monopoly on what they sell to their customers." The former is an anti-trust concern; the latter is just the basics of how a retail operation works. Which themagician has been patiently trying to explain. I understand that a lot of people really want to use Apple phones, because they feel that they are superior to Android phones. But this is not a monopoly, it's literally how the market is supposed to work. You can't walk into a Walmart physical store and ask to see their embedded Target store. Hardware, software, and inventory are bundled into an experience by every retailer in existence.
- threeseed 7y ago
  The retail store analogy is really unhelpful and makes no sense. There are significant security and privacy concerns in allowing third party App Stores and it opens Apple up to significant legal risk. For example if the other stores weren't as vigilant then you could have rampant piracy, apps with illegal content or apps that siphon user data.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    How would Apple be open to any liability? They don't have any liability when they allow you to download whatever you want to your Mac laptop. It would be exactly the same.
  - tpush 7y ago
    > [...] you could have rampant piracy, apps with illegal content or apps that siphon user data. That's already the case today in form of the Web, yet obviously Apple is not restricting which websites a user can browse to. In general, this whole 'third-party stores are a security risk etc.' doesn't hold any water under inspection. Security and privacy come from the sandboxed nature of apps running on iOS, and of course Apple themselves determine what APIs are available and under what circumstances an app can access what data about a device or user. This is all independent from wherever a user installs an app.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Well, how did sideloading FortNite work on Android. It exposed users to a vulnerability. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...
- xvector 7y ago
  > That's a false choice. That's like saying "don't like Walmart? Then leave the US and move to Europe!" No, it's like saying "don't like Walmart? Feel free to leave the store and look for a Costco."
  - jedberg 7y ago
    Except that's where it breaks down, because your Apple hardware is the "country" you live in. There are no other stores in your "country".
    - xvector 7y ago
      Absolutely not. It is not nearly so restrictive as moving to a different country. Apple and the App Store is just one option in the massive free market - and a minority option at that. Drawing a line between the hardware of the iPhone and the software of the App Store is arbitrary. From Apple's point of view, they are one. And there are other options out there if you do not want an iPhone with the App Store. Complaining that an alternative App Store should be implemented is like complaining that iOS should also be optional. Why is Apple required to implement additional features and give up market share when the are not a monopoly in the first place?
- scarface74 7y ago
  So people choose which game console they want all of the time based on the available features and software. Each console maker also tightly controls what can be distributed either online or physically. I fail to see how choosing Android is a false choice when 80%+ of smart phone users do exactly that.
treis 7y ago
>You can choose android Pointing out that Apple is a duopoly and not a monopoly isn't a compelling argument. Especially so when the other half of the duopoly engages in the same sort of abusive behaviors.
- xvector 7y ago
  Pointing out that the App Store is the only available app store in the iPhone is not a compelling argument either. When you're in a Walmart, you can only buy from Walmart. Nothing is stopping you from going to Costco.
  - treis 7y ago
    >When you're in a Walmart, you can only buy from Walmart. Nothing is stopping you from going to Costco. The laws of physics are not anti-competitive. What would be an anti-trust issue is if Walmart took steps to prevent their customers from shopping at Costco. Apple is stopping iPhone owners from going to the equivalent of Costco by banning competing app stores. That's a pretty clear violation of U.S. antitrust laws.
    - xvector 7y ago
      > What would be an anti-trust issue is if Walmart took steps to prevent their customers from shopping at Costco. Apple is not preventing you from choosing to buy an Android phone. Owning an iPhone is like being in a Walmart. You can either buy from the store or go somewhere else. Walmart-made products will be cheaper in the store. You can always go somewhere else. You can make the choice on whether you want to go to Walmart or Costco before, during, or after your stint in either.
      - treis 7y ago
        >Apple is not preventing you from choosing to buy an Android phone. They're preventing you from buying iOS apps from anyone but Apple. >Owning an iPhone is like being in a Walmart. You can either buy from the store or go somewhere else. It's not and you can't. There's nothing inherent that forces you to only buy software from Apple because you own an Apple device. And you can't go somewhere else to buy your software because Apple blocks that.

jedberg 7y ago

> You can choose android. That's a false choice. That's like saying "don't like Walmart? Then leave the US and move to Europe!" The choices aren't equivalent. Each have their pluses and minuses, but the choice of Android or Apple should not dictate which retail outlet you get to use. In the real world, the consumer can chose the easy retail outlet (Walmart, Amazon) or they can choose a harder to use/access outlet, but at least they get the choice. With Apple, you can't choose your retail outlet, and that is by Apple's design.

themagician 7y ago
There is really no consumer issue here. If you want to use Spotify you can. You can download it and use it all you want on your Apple device. You can use it on the web, and you can even download an app. If you want to buy Spotify premium, you can! You can buy it directly from Spotify. If you want to buy it from the App Store you can! But Spotify has decided they don’t want to sell it on the App Store because Apple’s entitlements/platform fee/referral fee/whatever you want to call it is too high.
- jedberg 7y ago
  > If you want to buy Spotify premium, you can! You can buy it directly from Spotify. Only if you independently know that it exists. They can't link out to their web store. Apple can though.
  - themagician 7y ago
    They can let people know it exists through any number of ways. They just can’t bundle that advertisement explicitly into product they sell on the App Store. But they actually do (in the radio spots). They just can’t do it in plain text. Again, this is can be true in other places in retail as well. Walmart may not be happy if I slap a giant sticker on my box that says, “Buy direct from us for less!” Sometimes the stores don’t care. Sometimes they do. If they don’t like it they reserve the right to kick you off the shelf or ask you to remove it.
    - jedberg 7y ago
      You keep conflating Apple's store with Apple's hardware. All of Apple's policies would be fine if they allowed any store on their hardware, because then other stores could have other policies. But since Apple doesn't allow other stores, it's not the same as regular retail, because the consumer can't choose another store with better policies.
      - snowwrestler 7y ago
        No, you're conflating "Apple has a monopoly on app stores in general" with "Apple has a monopoly on what they sell to their customers." The former is an anti-trust concern; the latter is just the basics of how a retail operation works. Which themagician has been patiently trying to explain. I understand that a lot of people really want to use Apple phones, because they feel that they are superior to Android phones. But this is not a monopoly, it's literally how the market is supposed to work. You can't walk into a Walmart physical store and ask to see their embedded Target store. Hardware, software, and inventory are bundled into an experience by every retailer in existence.
threeseed 7y ago
The retail store analogy is really unhelpful and makes no sense. There are significant security and privacy concerns in allowing third party App Stores and it opens Apple up to significant legal risk. For example if the other stores weren't as vigilant then you could have rampant piracy, apps with illegal content or apps that siphon user data.
- jedberg 7y ago
  How would Apple be open to any liability? They don't have any liability when they allow you to download whatever you want to your Mac laptop. It would be exactly the same.
- tpush 7y ago
  > [...] you could have rampant piracy, apps with illegal content or apps that siphon user data. That's already the case today in form of the Web, yet obviously Apple is not restricting which websites a user can browse to. In general, this whole 'third-party stores are a security risk etc.' doesn't hold any water under inspection. Security and privacy come from the sandboxed nature of apps running on iOS, and of course Apple themselves determine what APIs are available and under what circumstances an app can access what data about a device or user. This is all independent from wherever a user installs an app.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Well, how did sideloading FortNite work on Android. It exposed users to a vulnerability. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...
xvector 7y ago
> That's a false choice. That's like saying "don't like Walmart? Then leave the US and move to Europe!" No, it's like saying "don't like Walmart? Feel free to leave the store and look for a Costco."
- jedberg 7y ago
  Except that's where it breaks down, because your Apple hardware is the "country" you live in. There are no other stores in your "country".
  - xvector 7y ago
    Absolutely not. It is not nearly so restrictive as moving to a different country. Apple and the App Store is just one option in the massive free market - and a minority option at that. Drawing a line between the hardware of the iPhone and the software of the App Store is arbitrary. From Apple's point of view, they are one. And there are other options out there if you do not want an iPhone with the App Store. Complaining that an alternative App Store should be implemented is like complaining that iOS should also be optional. Why is Apple required to implement additional features and give up market share when the are not a monopoly in the first place?
scarface74 7y ago
So people choose which game console they want all of the time based on the available features and software. Each console maker also tightly controls what can be distributed either online or physically. I fail to see how choosing Android is a false choice when 80%+ of smart phone users do exactly that.

treis 7y ago

>You can choose android Pointing out that Apple is a duopoly and not a monopoly isn't a compelling argument. Especially so when the other half of the duopoly engages in the same sort of abusive behaviors.

xvector 7y ago
Pointing out that the App Store is the only available app store in the iPhone is not a compelling argument either. When you're in a Walmart, you can only buy from Walmart. Nothing is stopping you from going to Costco.
- treis 7y ago
  >When you're in a Walmart, you can only buy from Walmart. Nothing is stopping you from going to Costco. The laws of physics are not anti-competitive. What would be an anti-trust issue is if Walmart took steps to prevent their customers from shopping at Costco. Apple is stopping iPhone owners from going to the equivalent of Costco by banning competing app stores. That's a pretty clear violation of U.S. antitrust laws.
  - xvector 7y ago
    > What would be an anti-trust issue is if Walmart took steps to prevent their customers from shopping at Costco. Apple is not preventing you from choosing to buy an Android phone. Owning an iPhone is like being in a Walmart. You can either buy from the store or go somewhere else. Walmart-made products will be cheaper in the store. You can always go somewhere else. You can make the choice on whether you want to go to Walmart or Costco before, during, or after your stint in either.
    - treis 7y ago
      >Apple is not preventing you from choosing to buy an Android phone. They're preventing you from buying iOS apps from anyone but Apple. >Owning an iPhone is like being in a Walmart. You can either buy from the store or go somewhere else. It's not and you can't. There's nothing inherent that forces you to only buy software from Apple because you own an Apple device. And you can't go somewhere else to buy your software because Apple blocks that.