6 ms·

One problem with ProtonMail that is also relevant here is that ProtonMail does not allow to pay anonymously for the service (so that investigators are able to f

One problem with ProtonMail that is also relevant here is that ProtonMail does not allow to pay anonymously for the service (so that investigators are able to follow the money trail). On the other hand (this is not supposed to be an advertisement or testimonial; I just state the fact), the German email provider Posteo that has some popularity among people who are concerned about privacy also allows anonymous payments via banknotes (cash) that is sent via mail (just put the letter into a postbox in a completely different city).

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mikece 7y ago
And would it be breaking any laws for a third party to pay for your ProtonMail account? Might be worth it to some people to pay 2x or even 10x the annual fee in cash to a third party to not have their financial fingerprints on the account.
- 781 7y ago
  You paying the cost for the "jihadi-john" account for a 1x/9x profit sounds like a good way of getting yourself into trouble.
  - mikece 7y ago
    Not everyone wanting privacy is a terrorist. Sometimes they are just very private people.
    - throwaway743 7y ago
      And perhaps everyone shouldn't have to live under the watch of a panopticon
      - smolder 7y ago
        Pardon my cynicism here, but: panopticon proponents seem to have all the power. There's little you can do to protest it. There's no anti-panopticon party to vote for, and organizing any kind of counter-action will just get you labeled a terrorist if at any point you become effective, I'd guess. I love to support products that respect my privacy, but it sort of feels like wasting money for lip service.
    - acct1771 7y ago
      The dead comment shouldn't be dead, as it represents what we're up against in society. It's relevant. But it should indeed have this kind of response. Wanting privacy is not a crime.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  You can buy and sell Protonmail accounts on Empire, Nightmare (formerly Dream) and other marketplaces
lone_haxx0r 7y ago
On the other hand, germany is a bad place to have your servers.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  At least the founders of Posteo show a strong willingness to proceed against attempts of intimidation which they face. See for example > https://posteo.de/blog/bnetza-entscheidung-zu-posteo-kryptographisch-bearbeitete-daten-nicht-auskunftspflichtig https://posteo.de/blog/bnetza-entscheidung-zu-posteo-kryptog... > https://posteo.de/Dienstaufsichtsbeschwerde_Strafanzeige.pdf https://posteo.de/Dienstaufsichtsbeschwerde_Strafanzeige.pdf (both in German).
  - C14L 7y ago
    And yet, Germany currently isn't even allowed to issue European Arrest Warrents, because our public prosecutors are not sufficiently independent from government influence. https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2019-05/cp190068de.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/201...
    - bn-usd-mistake 7y ago
      Just want to clarify that German courts are allowed to issue European arrest warrants, just the prosecutors are not allowed to
    - stordoff 7y ago
      English language version: https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2019-05/cp190068en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/201...
- amaccuish 7y ago
  Out of interest where would you suggest?
  - throw44557752 7y ago
maxymoos 7y ago
You can pay with Bitcoin or cash apparently, though the latter will require contacting the ProtonMail team & arranging terms. https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/payment/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/payment/
- rolltiide 7y ago
  Okay, now try to. You need an existing account, which you can't get if you: - disable javascript - don't verify with a phone number - get stuck in captcha hell verify with a phone number is notorious for blocking google voice number blocks and detecting devices that aren't pinging cell towers
  - C14L 7y ago
    > disable javascript How do you want to decrypt your data client-side without running a software to do just that?
  - maxymoos 7y ago
    If I was that concerned, I'd get a burner phone with a prepaid SIM card and create my account from a public computer while covering my face. Plus, as somebody else already said: having JS enabled seems pretty much mandatory if you want to be able to decrypt your emails client-side.
    - wolfgke 7y ago
      > If I was that concerned, I'd get a burner phone with a prepaid SIM card and create my account from a public computer while covering my face. In the EU countries, it has (by law) become very hard to obtain an anonymous prepaid SIM card.
      - dhwidiwb 7y ago
        In _some_ EU countries. That's not true for them all.
x2f10 7y ago
I don't have ProtonMail, but do they not accept prepaid VISA / MASTERCARD debits?
- LinuxBender 7y ago
  I have not tested ProtonMail, but not likely. Most internet sites these days do not accept gift (prepaid) cards. I have found a couple VPS providers that do (or did) but the number of sites accepting gift cards is dwindling fast.
alpaca128 7y ago
There's also Mailbox which offers the same kind of payment and is very similar to Posteo as far as I know.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mikece 7y ago

And would it be breaking any laws for a third party to pay for your ProtonMail account? Might be worth it to some people to pay 2x or even 10x the annual fee in cash to a third party to not have their financial fingerprints on the account.

781 7y ago
You paying the cost for the "jihadi-john" account for a 1x/9x profit sounds like a good way of getting yourself into trouble.
- mikece 7y ago
  Not everyone wanting privacy is a terrorist. Sometimes they are just very private people.
  - throwaway743 7y ago
    And perhaps everyone shouldn't have to live under the watch of a panopticon
    - smolder 7y ago
      Pardon my cynicism here, but: panopticon proponents seem to have all the power. There's little you can do to protest it. There's no anti-panopticon party to vote for, and organizing any kind of counter-action will just get you labeled a terrorist if at any point you become effective, I'd guess. I love to support products that respect my privacy, but it sort of feels like wasting money for lip service.
  - acct1771 7y ago
    The dead comment shouldn't be dead, as it represents what we're up against in society. It's relevant. But it should indeed have this kind of response. Wanting privacy is not a crime.
rolltiide 7y ago
You can buy and sell Protonmail accounts on Empire, Nightmare (formerly Dream) and other marketplaces

lone_haxx0r 7y ago

On the other hand, germany is a bad place to have your servers.

wolfgke 7y ago
At least the founders of Posteo show a strong willingness to proceed against attempts of intimidation which they face. See for example > https://posteo.de/blog/bnetza-entscheidung-zu-posteo-kryptographisch-bearbeitete-daten-nicht-auskunftspflichtig https://posteo.de/blog/bnetza-entscheidung-zu-posteo-kryptog... > https://posteo.de/Dienstaufsichtsbeschwerde_Strafanzeige.pdf https://posteo.de/Dienstaufsichtsbeschwerde_Strafanzeige.pdf (both in German).
- C14L 7y ago
  And yet, Germany currently isn't even allowed to issue European Arrest Warrents, because our public prosecutors are not sufficiently independent from government influence. https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2019-05/cp190068de.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/201...
  - bn-usd-mistake 7y ago
    Just want to clarify that German courts are allowed to issue European arrest warrants, just the prosecutors are not allowed to
  - stordoff 7y ago
    English language version: https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2019-05/cp190068en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/201...
amaccuish 7y ago
Out of interest where would you suggest?
- throw44557752 7y ago

maxymoos 7y ago

You can pay with Bitcoin or cash apparently, though the latter will require contacting the ProtonMail team & arranging terms. https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/payment/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/payment/

rolltiide 7y ago
Okay, now try to. You need an existing account, which you can't get if you: - disable javascript - don't verify with a phone number - get stuck in captcha hell verify with a phone number is notorious for blocking google voice number blocks and detecting devices that aren't pinging cell towers
- C14L 7y ago
  > disable javascript How do you want to decrypt your data client-side without running a software to do just that?
- maxymoos 7y ago
  If I was that concerned, I'd get a burner phone with a prepaid SIM card and create my account from a public computer while covering my face. Plus, as somebody else already said: having JS enabled seems pretty much mandatory if you want to be able to decrypt your emails client-side.
  - wolfgke 7y ago
    > If I was that concerned, I'd get a burner phone with a prepaid SIM card and create my account from a public computer while covering my face. In the EU countries, it has (by law) become very hard to obtain an anonymous prepaid SIM card.
    - dhwidiwb 7y ago
      In _some_ EU countries. That's not true for them all.

x2f10 7y ago

I don't have ProtonMail, but do they not accept prepaid VISA / MASTERCARD debits?

LinuxBender 7y ago
I have not tested ProtonMail, but not likely. Most internet sites these days do not accept gift (prepaid) cards. I have found a couple VPS providers that do (or did) but the number of sites accepting gift cards is dwindling fast.

alpaca128 7y ago

There's also Mailbox which offers the same kind of payment and is very similar to Posteo as far as I know.