6 ms·

How would you feel about having your name, address, and photograph in a database of people who frequently visit bars catering to the gay community? Would you ch

by CPLX 7y ago

How would you feel about having your name, address, and photograph in a database of people who frequently visit bars catering to the gay community? Would you change your answer if you lived in Alabama, or on a military base?

imgabe 7y ago
I wouldn't care. Straight people go to gay bars. I've gone to several on a few different occasions, despite being straight. I doubt I would want to associate with anyone who would care. I'm confident that I could find people who wouldn't even think to check such a database even in gasp Alabama or on a military base. Just because someone doesn't live in one of the five approved liberal cities doesn't mean they're automatically a bigoted jerk.
- liability 7y ago
  > "Just because someone doesn't live in one of the five approved liberal cities doesn't mean they're automatically a bigoted jerk." And just because somebody does live in a liberal city doesn't mean they don't have legitimate reasons to desire privacy.
  - imgabe 7y ago
    Knowledge of your address is not a violation of privacy. I assume you never order take out food or receive mail?
    - liability 7y ago
      There is much more here than a mapping of name-to-address, and you know that.
      - imgabe 7y ago
        Yes, there are also bar owners reporting incidents that happened in their bar. Are you going to propose that bar owners are not allowed to write down things that happened to them? Are you going to propose that they are not allowed to tell other people about things they witnessed? How do you reconcile that with free speech? For me the point at which this becomes a problem is where other bars that were not a party to the incident ban people based on unverified information. That is the actual problem and what I would propose restricting
        liability 7y ago
        The company will be logging every single card that gets scanned. You will be in their database even if you are never written up for any infraction, and that running history of every bar you ever scanned in at will be information that could become public through incompetence or greed. You know this. I know that you know what data brokers are, that companies obsessively log everything by default, and that cyber-security is frequently abysmal. You're not dumb, you're just pretending to be. That's a nasty habit.
        imgabe 7y ago
        Ok, they will have a partial [1] list of bars I visited. This will allow them to do what specific nefarious acts, exactly? I'm not pretending anything. Maybe I really am dumb or just unimaginative. I don't see what harm is going to come to me from someone having this information or even why anyone would care to look at it. [1] partial because not every bar is going to implement this
        liability 7y ago
        Pretending to lack an imagination isn't really a good use of your time, nor is this conversation a good use of mine. Have a nice day.
        CPLX 7y ago
        > How do you reconcile that with free speech? I don't have to. Commercial speech isn't by definition free. The bar owner is certainly permitted to tell their friends about something that happened, or write a book about what an asshole customer you are. That doesn't mean every for-profit database of information, no matter how personal or how obtained, is legal. As, of course, you most certainly already know. There aren't any consumer credit reporting agencies, for example, making legal claims that the FCRA is a first amendment violation.
    - ryandrake 7y ago
      If you truly believe that, please reply to this comment with your full home address.
- smelendez 7y ago
  That's fine for you, but not for everyone. Would you really feel comfortable if this database leaked, a la Ashley Madison, and you knew people could search your name on some PasteBin and see all the bars you've been to? Gay bars, biker bars, strip clubs, bars hosting political rallies, bars hosting events mocking religion. Bars where convicted felons are present, bars where alleged gang members are present, bars where prostitutes are present, bars known for drug use, bars known for cheap liquor and heavy drinking. Going to see a concert you're not that familiar with and it turns out to be racist/sexist/atheist/pro-abortion/anti-abortion... Accidentally ending up in the same bar as your coworkers during a union organizing drive, intentionally going to the bar with your coworkers during a union drive... Five bars in one night, one bar after 3am...
  - imgabe 7y ago
    I can honestly say that I would not want anything to do with anybody who would search my name on pastebin to find out if I was at a bar that did something that offended them so they can hold that against me. That person sounds absolutely insufferable. If they are going to go to that much trouble to find something to dislike about me, we were never going to get along in the first place.
    - CPLX 7y ago
      Are you at least vaguely aware that people get assaulted or killed or blackmailed or discriminated against because of who they are and who they associate with? It's not much consolation that you "find them insufferable" when they tie you to a fence or drag you behind a truck because of who you are. This isn't that complicated. Many of us consider it a right to keep parts our our life private including who we choose to socialize with. You have every right to not agree with that point of view, but you should quit the charade of pretending not to understand it.
      - imgabe 7y ago
        Do you honestly believe that the people tying people to fence posts or dragging people behind a truck are going to go search for names on pastebin to find their victims? That doesn't make a lot of sense. If that's really what they want to do, they'll just wait outside the bar and grab whoever comes out. I agree it's a problem that people do things like that. I don't think that worrying about a name in a database has anything to do with preventing it. I'm really struggling to find any credibility in this scenario: Mr. Bigot thinks Jeff is gay. Mr. Bigot then goes to search on pastebin to see if there's any evidence of Jeff going to gay bars before beating him up. In my experience people like Mr. Bigot are not real big on fact checking.
enjo 7y ago
For me the bigger issue here is how one night at a bar might follow me around for the rest of my life. I get into an altercation at a bar and kicked out.. now I have a "record" that everyone can see? There is no due process here. No investigation. Nothing.. just a record that a future employer might be interested in taking a look at. It's the Chinese social credit system but worse because it's privatized.
- imgabe 7y ago
  I agree, I just think that trying to prevent people from collecting publicly available information is the wrong way to stop it. The bar has a legitimate reason to look at your ID. Instead how about we just make a law that bars can only ban people for incidents that occurred in that bar. That seems reasonable to me and would hold them to a similar standard as the justice system (no hearsay).
  - vajrabum 7y ago
    Looking at your id is not the same thing as scanning and storing it. They clearly don't have a legitimate use for that data just a pretext. Having spent time in bars I definitely don't want bartenders and bar owners to know where I live.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  And I got asked to leave one pub because another family member had complained about the noise from the establishment.
  - magduf 7y ago
    If you don't like lots and lots of noise, then you have no business patronizing a bar or restaurant in America. The same is becoming more and more true of workplaces too. Americans love noisy places, and they love to talk really, really loudly. Here's a great article in The Atlantic about how American restaurants got so noisy: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/how-restaurants-got-so-loud/576715/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/how-r...
jstarfish 7y ago
> How would you feel about having your name, address, and photograph in a database of people who frequently visit bars catering to the gay community? Would you change your answer if you lived in Alabama Isn't this already the case if you visit a gay bathhouse anywhere in the south?

by CPLX 7y ago

imgabe 7y ago

I wouldn't care. Straight people go to gay bars. I've gone to several on a few different occasions, despite being straight. I doubt I would want to associate with anyone who would care. I'm confident that I could find people who wouldn't even think to check such a database even in gasp Alabama or on a military base. Just because someone doesn't live in one of the five approved liberal cities doesn't mean they're automatically a bigoted jerk.

liability 7y ago
> "Just because someone doesn't live in one of the five approved liberal cities doesn't mean they're automatically a bigoted jerk." And just because somebody does live in a liberal city doesn't mean they don't have legitimate reasons to desire privacy.
- imgabe 7y ago
  Knowledge of your address is not a violation of privacy. I assume you never order take out food or receive mail?
  - liability 7y ago
    There is much more here than a mapping of name-to-address, and you know that.
    - imgabe 7y ago
      Yes, there are also bar owners reporting incidents that happened in their bar. Are you going to propose that bar owners are not allowed to write down things that happened to them? Are you going to propose that they are not allowed to tell other people about things they witnessed? How do you reconcile that with free speech? For me the point at which this becomes a problem is where other bars that were not a party to the incident ban people based on unverified information. That is the actual problem and what I would propose restricting
      - liability 7y ago
        The company will be logging every single card that gets scanned. You will be in their database even if you are never written up for any infraction, and that running history of every bar you ever scanned in at will be information that could become public through incompetence or greed. You know this. I know that you know what data brokers are, that companies obsessively log everything by default, and that cyber-security is frequently abysmal. You're not dumb, you're just pretending to be. That's a nasty habit.
        imgabe 7y ago
        Ok, they will have a partial [1] list of bars I visited. This will allow them to do what specific nefarious acts, exactly? I'm not pretending anything. Maybe I really am dumb or just unimaginative. I don't see what harm is going to come to me from someone having this information or even why anyone would care to look at it. [1] partial because not every bar is going to implement this
        liability 7y ago
        Pretending to lack an imagination isn't really a good use of your time, nor is this conversation a good use of mine. Have a nice day.
      - CPLX 7y ago
        > How do you reconcile that with free speech? I don't have to. Commercial speech isn't by definition free. The bar owner is certainly permitted to tell their friends about something that happened, or write a book about what an asshole customer you are. That doesn't mean every for-profit database of information, no matter how personal or how obtained, is legal. As, of course, you most certainly already know. There aren't any consumer credit reporting agencies, for example, making legal claims that the FCRA is a first amendment violation.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    If you truly believe that, please reply to this comment with your full home address.
smelendez 7y ago
That's fine for you, but not for everyone. Would you really feel comfortable if this database leaked, a la Ashley Madison, and you knew people could search your name on some PasteBin and see all the bars you've been to? Gay bars, biker bars, strip clubs, bars hosting political rallies, bars hosting events mocking religion. Bars where convicted felons are present, bars where alleged gang members are present, bars where prostitutes are present, bars known for drug use, bars known for cheap liquor and heavy drinking. Going to see a concert you're not that familiar with and it turns out to be racist/sexist/atheist/pro-abortion/anti-abortion... Accidentally ending up in the same bar as your coworkers during a union organizing drive, intentionally going to the bar with your coworkers during a union drive... Five bars in one night, one bar after 3am...
- imgabe 7y ago
  I can honestly say that I would not want anything to do with anybody who would search my name on pastebin to find out if I was at a bar that did something that offended them so they can hold that against me. That person sounds absolutely insufferable. If they are going to go to that much trouble to find something to dislike about me, we were never going to get along in the first place.
  - CPLX 7y ago
    Are you at least vaguely aware that people get assaulted or killed or blackmailed or discriminated against because of who they are and who they associate with? It's not much consolation that you "find them insufferable" when they tie you to a fence or drag you behind a truck because of who you are. This isn't that complicated. Many of us consider it a right to keep parts our our life private including who we choose to socialize with. You have every right to not agree with that point of view, but you should quit the charade of pretending not to understand it.
    - imgabe 7y ago
      Do you honestly believe that the people tying people to fence posts or dragging people behind a truck are going to go search for names on pastebin to find their victims? That doesn't make a lot of sense. If that's really what they want to do, they'll just wait outside the bar and grab whoever comes out. I agree it's a problem that people do things like that. I don't think that worrying about a name in a database has anything to do with preventing it. I'm really struggling to find any credibility in this scenario: Mr. Bigot thinks Jeff is gay. Mr. Bigot then goes to search on pastebin to see if there's any evidence of Jeff going to gay bars before beating him up. In my experience people like Mr. Bigot are not real big on fact checking.

enjo 7y ago

For me the bigger issue here is how one night at a bar might follow me around for the rest of my life. I get into an altercation at a bar and kicked out.. now I have a "record" that everyone can see? There is no due process here. No investigation. Nothing.. just a record that a future employer might be interested in taking a look at. It's the Chinese social credit system but worse because it's privatized.

imgabe 7y ago
I agree, I just think that trying to prevent people from collecting publicly available information is the wrong way to stop it. The bar has a legitimate reason to look at your ID. Instead how about we just make a law that bars can only ban people for incidents that occurred in that bar. That seems reasonable to me and would hold them to a similar standard as the justice system (no hearsay).
- vajrabum 7y ago
  Looking at your id is not the same thing as scanning and storing it. They clearly don't have a legitimate use for that data just a pretext. Having spent time in bars I definitely don't want bartenders and bar owners to know where I live.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
And I got asked to leave one pub because another family member had complained about the noise from the establishment.
- magduf 7y ago
  If you don't like lots and lots of noise, then you have no business patronizing a bar or restaurant in America. The same is becoming more and more true of workplaces too. Americans love noisy places, and they love to talk really, really loudly. Here's a great article in The Atlantic about how American restaurants got so noisy: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/how-restaurants-got-so-loud/576715/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/how-r...

jstarfish 7y ago

> How would you feel about having your name, address, and photograph in a database of people who frequently visit bars catering to the gay community? Would you change your answer if you lived in Alabama Isn't this already the case if you visit a gay bathhouse anywhere in the south?