5 ms·

The common denominator for making a lot of money is not "the trades" but owning a business. Of course he's gonna make more if he doesn't have to relinquish the

by tsss 7y ago

The common denominator for making a lot of money is not "the trades" but owning a business. Of course he's gonna make more if he doesn't have to relinquish the majority of his profits to a boss. A lot of people here and on reddit like to romanticize the trades while sitting in an air-conditioned office like it's some secret tip to instant wealth without the need to study for years. But the reality is grim for the majority of salaried tradesmen. It's a job that is very hard on your body and the heralded "fresh air" suddenly sounds a lot less nice when you have to do physical labor in intense heat or cold. Those who go above and beyond will always succeed no matter the field but for the average Joe a solid education is a much better bet and you are doing them a disservice by spreading these second-hand anecdotes.

sharkweek 7y ago
My point isn’t that everyone should quit college and join a trade union, my point is that it can be a viable option for a lot of people, ESPECIALLY in lieu of taking on a bunch of debt at a young age.
briandear 7y ago
Sitting at a desk for 40 years is also “hard” in your body. Also, a lot of people romanticize the value of “the college experience.” Is that experience worth $150k of debt? Is a degree in social work ever worth that much? Not at all; the data proves it. > for the average Joe a solid education is a much better bet and you are doing a disservice by spreading these second hand anecdotes Did you hear the one about the sociology graduate working at Starbucks with 100k in debt? How about the English graduate working at a call center with $80k in debt? How about the one about the one who worked her way through a marketing degree only to end up working as an assistant manager at a local Williams Sonoma making about $18 per hour. Let’s not spread anecdotes about how college is a better bet because for many many people, it’s not. I got a completely wasted degree in journalism, but now I work for a FAANG as a software engineer. The degree wasn’t even a consideration. So I have student debt for no good reason. And belittling the trades, claiming physical labor is hard: that’s just elitist. Most of the trades are more active than your office jobs, but that’s what “work” often is. People have gotten soft, lazy and fat. It isn’t like the trades require 12 hours a day at the bottom of a coal mine. A sedentary lifestyle is more of a risk than being a machinist.
- sjy 7y ago
  > I got a completely wasted degree in journalism, but now I work for a FAANG as a software engineer. The degree wasn’t even a consideration. Are you sure about that? I've always thought that a degree was essential to get past HR at large, established companies, but it's not essential that the degree relates directly to the job you're doing.
  - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
    > I've always thought that a degree was essential to get past HR at large, established companies, but it's not essential that the degree relates directly to the job you're doing. Not necessarily. Many large companies, including even some of the FAANGs, phrase the requirement as "BS in Computer Science or equivalent experience". That being said, though, applicants who want to make use of the "or equivalent experience clause" should expect to be challenged to demonstrate that they do indeed have equivalent experience.
  - cultofmetatron 7y ago
    I have an economics degree myself but I've worked alongside excellent software engineers at midsize companies that were dropouts or didn't even start college at all. I've found little correlation in ability between a college degree and their ability to do their job. Hell, my cousin is 2 years into his CS degree and had no experience using git or worked on a group project till I drilled the importance of these soft skills into him.
- rovolo 7y ago
  Just a side comment on your "soft, lazy, and fat" terminology; young POWs in the Korean War were also called "soft" for not escaping and for dying at high rate (38%). > What struck Major Anderson most forcibly was the almost universal inability of the prisoners to adjust to a primitive situation. "They lacked the old Yankee resourcefulness," he said. "This was partly—but only partly, I believe—the result of the psychic shock of being captured. It was also, I think, the result of some new failure in the childhood and adolescent training of our young men—a new softness." The Vanishing Adolescent (1959), page 210: https://openlibrary.org/books/OL24370505M/The_vanishing_adolescent https://openlibrary.org/books/OL24370505M/The_vanishing_adol...
jamesmp98 7y ago
I actually got sick of the "trades" trope recently and did a little research. Looking at local job listing, the entry level pay for most of the trades is very grim and you have to put years and years of work to get a decent wage. This is in a low CoL area
- busterarm 7y ago
  This is pretty comparable to the low wages the majority of people will receive just out of college, except the trade job is much more likely to build career skills and relationships without the huge debt burden. It wasn't until I had about 5 years of solid experience before I started being able to significantly increase my income regularly in my field.
  - jamesmp98 7y ago
    Perhaps you're right. I probably have a warped view of wages working in tech, but I just can't imagine working for over a decade just to max out around $50-$60k without starting my own business
    - busterarm 7y ago
      That's the reality for almost everyone unless they're willing to relocate. Most tech jobs aren't in low CoL areas and remote work is ultra competitive. There is a ceiling to what local opportunities can provide. More specialized or more senior roles are usually available elsewhere.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  Agreed. Anecdotally (my wife works for a small business that employs [mostly low voltage] electricians), a typical electrician makes roughly $35/hour. The business bills them out at $125/hour. It isn't the electrician making the big bucks.
- 2ion 7y ago
  A huge issue is region/nation. Unless you have luck with your trades business here in Germany and the market is not over-saturated and the guild actually lets you start the business, you're looking not at 100k€ but 30-50k€ per year, and that's with some significant seniority already so you're waaaay behind in earnings. The opportunities are there, but going into the trades, esp. when you look at the next 40 years, is not much better than giving university a shot (ok, it's no tuition here). Plus, with a college degree, getting visas for abroad is easier and in these troubled times mobility of this sort is also something I wouldn't like to miss.
theflyinghorse 7y ago
> A lot of people here and on reddit like to romanticize the trades while sitting in an air-conditioned office like it's some secret tip to instant wealth without the need to study for years. But the reality is grim for the majority of salaried tradesmen. It's a job that is very hard on your body and the heralded "fresh air" suddenly sounds a lot less nice when you have to do physical labor in intense heat or cold. I agree. My father works up in Albertan north in temperatures anywhere from +30 to -50, and their schedule is 14 days work and 5 days off. No doubt it's getting harder on his body ( he is now approaching 60's).
makotech222 7y ago
Thank you for this. Bill gates isn't rich because he invented Windows OS, he's rich because he owns it! If he was just some salary worker, working on it, he wouldn't have a single cent of the profits.
csa 7y ago
> for the average Joe a solid education is a much better bet and you are doing them a disservice by spreading these second-hand anecdotes. I agree with everything you said up to the above quote. I’m not sure how you characterize “the average Joe”, but I assure you that the 50th percentile of college age people by any reasonable measure of aptitude will not be able to finish college with any degree, and they will certainly not be able to get a degree that will likely lead to (relatively) high pay like engineering or nursing. About 32% of 24 year olds (maybe 25 yo) have an undergraduate degree. If you have a casual conversation with the 20%-32% folks (spitballing this number), you would probably be shocked about how little most of them know about anything, including their “major”. These folks were basically socially promoted through an undergraduate degree. This happens a lot more than many folks would like to believe, and it boils down to ability to pay. If you need some anecdotal evidence of this, I strongly encourage you to teach or be a TA for a required freshman writing course (esp. at a lower competitive university / junior college). The inability of many of these folks to write a coherent short essay or even a coherent paragraph would make your brain explode. These are the average Joe’s you are referring to. College, at least in its current form, is not the answer for these folks.
- tsss 7y ago
  Haha, I am a TA actually for several classes. It's true that most of my students are dumb as fuck and incapable of basic tasks. You'd assume that a computer science student would be able to install a development environment on their own, but apparently not. But at the end of the day many of them still get a degree and (somehow) get hired and there are plenty of universities here that are far easier than mine. You don't need to be smart to get a college degree, all you need is discipline to torture yourself through these mostly pointless exercises. Whether or not they learn anything at college or just waste time is not the point. The fact of the matter is that a college degree helps you to get a job that is usually more comfortable and pays better. I'd argue that those people who can excel as a tradesman and actually rake in the money would also do the same had they gone the college-route instead and for those that don't, an office job with college degree is clearly the better option.
MisterBastahrd 7y ago
My dad's former neighbor of 40+ years used to be a welder. The man has undergone numerous surgeries on his wrists, shoulders, and back from repetitive stress injuries on the job. Did it afford him the nice house on the big chunk of property in the country he wanted? Sure, although remarrying a local business executive helped with that. My dad, meanwhile, started out as a pipefitter but went into the management side of things and was basically doubling up his neighbor in salary for the last 20 years of their careers, and the only medical treatment he's ever had for work was for carpal tunnel, which was non-surgical. My dad is 70 and gets around way better than you would expect for a man his age just because he's kept in shape with a bit of jogging. His former neighbor is 4 years younger and has to be extremely judicious with how he gets around.
invalidOrTaken 7y ago
>The common denominator for making a lot of money is not "the trades" but owning a business. This, this, this. Our education system does a great job of teaching value production. It does an absolutely terrible job of teaching value capture. It would be really nice if the two were always aligned. But for most people, most of the time, they're not. The best solution for most people, IMO, is to divorce the two: to work at a job, and serve the community in off-hours. And to aim for independence so the two can be joined.

by tsss 7y ago

sharkweek 7y ago

My point isn’t that everyone should quit college and join a trade union, my point is that it can be a viable option for a lot of people, ESPECIALLY in lieu of taking on a bunch of debt at a young age.

briandear 7y ago

Sitting at a desk for 40 years is also “hard” in your body. Also, a lot of people romanticize the value of “the college experience.” Is that experience worth $150k of debt? Is a degree in social work ever worth that much? Not at all; the data proves it. > for the average Joe a solid education is a much better bet and you are doing a disservice by spreading these second hand anecdotes Did you hear the one about the sociology graduate working at Starbucks with 100k in debt? How about the English graduate working at a call center with $80k in debt? How about the one about the one who worked her way through a marketing degree only to end up working as an assistant manager at a local Williams Sonoma making about $18 per hour. Let’s not spread anecdotes about how college is a better bet because for many many people, it’s not. I got a completely wasted degree in journalism, but now I work for a FAANG as a software engineer. The degree wasn’t even a consideration. So I have student debt for no good reason. And belittling the trades, claiming physical labor is hard: that’s just elitist. Most of the trades are more active than your office jobs, but that’s what “work” often is. People have gotten soft, lazy and fat. It isn’t like the trades require 12 hours a day at the bottom of a coal mine. A sedentary lifestyle is more of a risk than being a machinist.

sjy 7y ago
> I got a completely wasted degree in journalism, but now I work for a FAANG as a software engineer. The degree wasn’t even a consideration. Are you sure about that? I've always thought that a degree was essential to get past HR at large, established companies, but it's not essential that the degree relates directly to the job you're doing.
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  > I've always thought that a degree was essential to get past HR at large, established companies, but it's not essential that the degree relates directly to the job you're doing. Not necessarily. Many large companies, including even some of the FAANGs, phrase the requirement as "BS in Computer Science or equivalent experience". That being said, though, applicants who want to make use of the "or equivalent experience clause" should expect to be challenged to demonstrate that they do indeed have equivalent experience.
- cultofmetatron 7y ago
  I have an economics degree myself but I've worked alongside excellent software engineers at midsize companies that were dropouts or didn't even start college at all. I've found little correlation in ability between a college degree and their ability to do their job. Hell, my cousin is 2 years into his CS degree and had no experience using git or worked on a group project till I drilled the importance of these soft skills into him.
rovolo 7y ago
Just a side comment on your "soft, lazy, and fat" terminology; young POWs in the Korean War were also called "soft" for not escaping and for dying at high rate (38%). > What struck Major Anderson most forcibly was the almost universal inability of the prisoners to adjust to a primitive situation. "They lacked the old Yankee resourcefulness," he said. "This was partly—but only partly, I believe—the result of the psychic shock of being captured. It was also, I think, the result of some new failure in the childhood and adolescent training of our young men—a new softness." The Vanishing Adolescent (1959), page 210: https://openlibrary.org/books/OL24370505M/The_vanishing_adolescent https://openlibrary.org/books/OL24370505M/The_vanishing_adol...

jamesmp98 7y ago

I actually got sick of the "trades" trope recently and did a little research. Looking at local job listing, the entry level pay for most of the trades is very grim and you have to put years and years of work to get a decent wage. This is in a low CoL area

busterarm 7y ago
This is pretty comparable to the low wages the majority of people will receive just out of college, except the trade job is much more likely to build career skills and relationships without the huge debt burden. It wasn't until I had about 5 years of solid experience before I started being able to significantly increase my income regularly in my field.
- jamesmp98 7y ago
  Perhaps you're right. I probably have a warped view of wages working in tech, but I just can't imagine working for over a decade just to max out around $50-$60k without starting my own business
  - busterarm 7y ago
    That's the reality for almost everyone unless they're willing to relocate. Most tech jobs aren't in low CoL areas and remote work is ultra competitive. There is a ceiling to what local opportunities can provide. More specialized or more senior roles are usually available elsewhere.
rootusrootus 7y ago
Agreed. Anecdotally (my wife works for a small business that employs [mostly low voltage] electricians), a typical electrician makes roughly $35/hour. The business bills them out at $125/hour. It isn't the electrician making the big bucks.
2ion 7y ago
A huge issue is region/nation. Unless you have luck with your trades business here in Germany and the market is not over-saturated and the guild actually lets you start the business, you're looking not at 100k€ but 30-50k€ per year, and that's with some significant seniority already so you're waaaay behind in earnings. The opportunities are there, but going into the trades, esp. when you look at the next 40 years, is not much better than giving university a shot (ok, it's no tuition here). Plus, with a college degree, getting visas for abroad is easier and in these troubled times mobility of this sort is also something I wouldn't like to miss.

theflyinghorse 7y ago

> A lot of people here and on reddit like to romanticize the trades while sitting in an air-conditioned office like it's some secret tip to instant wealth without the need to study for years. But the reality is grim for the majority of salaried tradesmen. It's a job that is very hard on your body and the heralded "fresh air" suddenly sounds a lot less nice when you have to do physical labor in intense heat or cold. I agree. My father works up in Albertan north in temperatures anywhere from +30 to -50, and their schedule is 14 days work and 5 days off. No doubt it's getting harder on his body ( he is now approaching 60's).

makotech222 7y ago

Thank you for this. Bill gates isn't rich because he invented Windows OS, he's rich because he owns it! If he was just some salary worker, working on it, he wouldn't have a single cent of the profits.

csa 7y ago

> for the average Joe a solid education is a much better bet and you are doing them a disservice by spreading these second-hand anecdotes. I agree with everything you said up to the above quote. I’m not sure how you characterize “the average Joe”, but I assure you that the 50th percentile of college age people by any reasonable measure of aptitude will not be able to finish college with any degree, and they will certainly not be able to get a degree that will likely lead to (relatively) high pay like engineering or nursing. About 32% of 24 year olds (maybe 25 yo) have an undergraduate degree. If you have a casual conversation with the 20%-32% folks (spitballing this number), you would probably be shocked about how little most of them know about anything, including their “major”. These folks were basically socially promoted through an undergraduate degree. This happens a lot more than many folks would like to believe, and it boils down to ability to pay. If you need some anecdotal evidence of this, I strongly encourage you to teach or be a TA for a required freshman writing course (esp. at a lower competitive university / junior college). The inability of many of these folks to write a coherent short essay or even a coherent paragraph would make your brain explode. These are the average Joe’s you are referring to. College, at least in its current form, is not the answer for these folks.

tsss 7y ago
Haha, I am a TA actually for several classes. It's true that most of my students are dumb as fuck and incapable of basic tasks. You'd assume that a computer science student would be able to install a development environment on their own, but apparently not. But at the end of the day many of them still get a degree and (somehow) get hired and there are plenty of universities here that are far easier than mine. You don't need to be smart to get a college degree, all you need is discipline to torture yourself through these mostly pointless exercises. Whether or not they learn anything at college or just waste time is not the point. The fact of the matter is that a college degree helps you to get a job that is usually more comfortable and pays better. I'd argue that those people who can excel as a tradesman and actually rake in the money would also do the same had they gone the college-route instead and for those that don't, an office job with college degree is clearly the better option.

MisterBastahrd 7y ago

My dad's former neighbor of 40+ years used to be a welder. The man has undergone numerous surgeries on his wrists, shoulders, and back from repetitive stress injuries on the job. Did it afford him the nice house on the big chunk of property in the country he wanted? Sure, although remarrying a local business executive helped with that. My dad, meanwhile, started out as a pipefitter but went into the management side of things and was basically doubling up his neighbor in salary for the last 20 years of their careers, and the only medical treatment he's ever had for work was for carpal tunnel, which was non-surgical. My dad is 70 and gets around way better than you would expect for a man his age just because he's kept in shape with a bit of jogging. His former neighbor is 4 years younger and has to be extremely judicious with how he gets around.

invalidOrTaken 7y ago

>The common denominator for making a lot of money is not "the trades" but owning a business. This, this, this. Our education system does a great job of teaching value production. It does an absolutely terrible job of teaching value capture. It would be really nice if the two were always aligned. But for most people, most of the time, they're not. The best solution for most people, IMO, is to divorce the two: to work at a job, and serve the community in off-hours. And to aim for independence so the two can be joined.