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And this is why, at 34, I have zero desire to get a degree yet many employers want a 4-year degree for even entry-level positions now. I had a company last summ

And this is why, at 34, I have zero desire to get a degree yet many employers want a 4-year degree for even entry-level positions now. I had a company last summer refuse to even interview me for not having a degree, despite the fact at the time they'd existed for 6 years and I had been doing the EXACT job for 12 years for a company that dwarfs them. I hate it, no one will give me a chance because I don't have a degree so I scrape by at 32k a year with virtually no hope of retirement only receiving merit-based increases that often leave me taking home the exact same amount (once or twice LESS) if you factor in inflation and annual increases in insurance costs. It's infuriating. I can either take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt and spend 4-6 years chasing down a 4-year degree while working full time so I can compete for jobs at 38-40 that 20-22 year old applicants are applying for now that some high schools are set up so that students graduate with an associates degree and a good chunk of their bachelor degree done or I can slip more and more into lower class each year, hoping like hell that I don't have some unforseen emergency or unemployment, while I watch people on /r/leanfire /r/financialindependence etc talking about how "I'm on track to retire by 30, should we work til 32 so we can have an extra 250k?" and I'm like "yeah, I'm 34, I barely have a year's gross in my retirement accounts let alone the 25x (minimum) my annual spend needed to retire"... so at this rate I can retire by the time I turn 350 years old give or take a few decades. Whats worse is I have friends that are independently wealthy at this point (the most successful of which is a college dropout), that can choose to do whatever job they want, they can chase their passion, while I have to work just to be able to live so that I can work more. Even with introductions to some startups within their first 5 years or so from investors, they're like "yeah, come back when you have a degree or have a major accomplishment of working on a big project" and I'm over here like "dude, I'll do remote customer service for a fraction of what you are paying people or mop floors just to prove myself!" My own employer (well my opco) will not let you move up more than a couple of rungs without a 4-year degree minimum, they'll flat out tell you as much, and hey prefer an MBA. This is a parent company with 400k something employees... FML.

dmm 7y ago
> I don't have a degree so I scrape by at 32k a year My employer is hiring people straight out of bootcamps for more than that and we are a low cost-of-living area. Maybe the lack of a degree isn't your problem. Maybe you need a change of scenery? > while I watch people on /r/leanfire /r/financialindependence Comparing yourself to others can be painful.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >My employer is hiring people straight out of bootcamps Yeah, STEM pays well. I'm not STEM (I think people on HN forget that we aren't all coders or theoretical mathematicians) and have no interest in coding. I'd rather put my fist into a wood-chipper than write code. The few times I've tried to tackle coding I've felt like I was (what I assume) having a stroke and did nothing but make me feel like an idiot and wonder how anyone could possibly think like that. Writing a hello world in qbasic was pushing my sanity.
supernova87a 7y ago
You sound like an articulate, aware, motivated person. May I ask what industry you're in? Perhaps you're in a business that fundamentally doesn't reward experience without a degree, and you should seek some arrangement outside of this traditional employment path where you can be rewarded.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >May I ask what industry you're in? I clear international freight through customs, paperwork. I had no desire to do this job, 13 years ago I was unemployed and this was the first place to call me for an interview and the only to make me an offer. I'm days away from 13 years of being here, in that time I've had exactly 1 company make me another job offer - paying me less and requiring some international travel, in the same industry. I declined. I had another interview me, it was mostly the same industry but doing a different role. When the guy told me "now I don't offer my employees insurance because my wife works at Lilly's and I'm on hers" I thanked him for his time and said no thank you, turns out aside from 2 warehouses in Georgia (the country) he only had a few employees. I've tried and tried and tried to get a job in any industry making the same as I do now and nothing. It's always no reply, sorry you don't have a degree, sorry you filed bankruptcy, you're great but we went with someone else try again in 12 month. I had one company hire me for remote customer service, just trying to diversify my CV since it is absurdly narrow after 13 years doing the same thing, but never once did they ask me if I'd filed bankruptcy after a handful of interviews. They issued me equipment, trained me, and had me do a day of work. The next morning I tried to log on and my credentials were invalid... had no way to contact anyone since I couldn't even boot the Chromebook to use the chat tools to contact the manager. With some great effort I finally got someone to reply to me from the company after a few days "you need to return your equipment immediately or we will bill you for it, we sent the label to your email" uhhh the email I can't access "ugh, I will see what I can do". Never once explained why but I have no criminal record and no legal anything against me except my bankruptcy and they didn't have me fill out the background check form until AFTER I started working for them. A few days after I got mailed them the (filthy, sticky, dead battery, heavily used) chromebook back I got a nice envelope from their outside legal counsel with print outs of my social media, me posting in their subreddit weeks and I think even months before even interviewing for them defending and praising them, my LinkedIn, my AngelList profile with a cease and desist stating I do not work for them, I was an independent contractor, and my contract was terminated and that I needed to immediately stop referring to them by name online as well as remove any claim that I was ever in their employ or legal action would be taken against me. They were in the financial sector. I'm still afraid to even mention their name online, it was disturbingly creepy how much printed screenshots they sent. So yeah, even when I do find something that doesn't care about the degree, then I have the stigma of a bankruptcy which apparently as far as the government (for security clearances) and for most companies dealing with finances makes you wholly untrustworthy and ineligible for employment. Sorry for the semi-tangent there, I'm still very bitter about that because I was so excited that I could get remote and customer service for a tech-co experience and used a favor to get an introduction to the company/founder to help get me that job and kinda went off on a rant.
switchbak 7y ago
Honestly, I think a lot of people in your position just lie about having a degree. I wouldn't recommend it though, the downside is large (and it's not ethical). How about an online degree? At your level of seniority no one even cares about grades or how long the degree was. It's usually only: type of degree (bachelor's, Master's, etc), and if it's a well known school or not. I don't even go into detail about my degree, just where I went and what degree it was. Jumping ship is really the only way to get a good raise in this business. Go to a bigger city if you have to so you have more choices. Really avoid the "tell us your salary history" trap. If you get on with a good company, their healthcare plan should cover you from the unforeseen windfalls. Otherwise you could move somewhere that has a reasonable government healthcare program (semi serious here). If you actually have a proven ability to provide value in an important capacity, that's actually quite bankable. Maybe have someone help you with your resume, and self marketing. You ought to be able to double your income (WAG here, I don't know what you do). I've worked with folks in your situation - and I find it shocking how some people will accept being so radically underpaid. Research the market, what you're really worth, and stand up for it until you get it.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >How about an online degree? Online degrees are often more expensive than in-state school (my current employer has partnered with a major university for a SPECIFIC online degree at 420$!!! a credit hour and will reimburse a whopping 5k of that a year), still require proctored exams. And again, it's still going to take 4-6 years to get a BA/BS with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and puts me at 38-40 competing against 20-22 year old applicants. Age discrimination is very real and 22 year olds often have far lower expenses than 40 year olds, so they will work for less.
fencepost 7y ago
First, screw reddit. Probably one of the best things you can do is leave those subs - they're letting you compare where you are to what other people choose to share about how they're doing. (edit: also remember that in 2008ish there were a lot of 'incredibly successful' people that turned out to be leveraged to the eyeballs or higher and borrowing money to keep up appearances until they lost the McMansions and the expensive cars got repo'd) Second, if you're applying mostly for large corporate jobs you're applying with companies that have established streamlined processes to get employees who are good enough and will fit their molds. Their regular hiring processes aren't designed to filter up the good hires, they're designed to filter out bad ones and they get enough volume that they don't care about false positives. If you want to be at one of those companies you'll have to do it through networking to take you past that first (and maybe second) filter. Are you looking at smaller companies at all? Is what you do or have the skills for relevant at a company of 10-100 employees? Heck, even "Why are you leaving?" has a great answer - "At a giant company like $F advancement has rock solid rules, and without spending years and $thousands on schooling it's clear that there's no upward path for me within the company. I have bigger goals, which is why I'm interested in smaller but growing companies like $interviewer's. This is nothing against schooling - I've taken advantage of a lot of educational opportunities available - but I feel like I'd be stagnating where I am while trying to reach their filtering bar."
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >First, screw reddit. Probably one of the best things you can do is leave those subs - they're letting you compare where you are to what other people choose to share about how they're doing. I'd agree except they aren't making outrageous claims, they are simply people that got decent STEM jobs at 22ish and have been living frugally socking away as much as they can. Their starting salaries are 2-3x what I make after 13 years. I still get plenty of benefit from subs like /r/leanfire, it's just mildly depressing seeing 22-24 year olds making way more than me with far more career advancement opportunities and in industries that actually get raises, negotiable salaries and bonuses, things largely alien outside of STEM except for at corporate levels.
sct202 7y ago
Don't discount the work experience that you do have. You have over a decade of individual experiences that you can frame up to communicate your strengths and what you can bring to the table. You don't need to market yourself as cheap labor, or else people will discount what you are capable of bringing to the table.

dmm 7y ago

> I don't have a degree so I scrape by at 32k a year My employer is hiring people straight out of bootcamps for more than that and we are a low cost-of-living area. Maybe the lack of a degree isn't your problem. Maybe you need a change of scenery? > while I watch people on /r/leanfire /r/financialindependence Comparing yourself to others can be painful.

ryanmercer 7y ago
>My employer is hiring people straight out of bootcamps Yeah, STEM pays well. I'm not STEM (I think people on HN forget that we aren't all coders or theoretical mathematicians) and have no interest in coding. I'd rather put my fist into a wood-chipper than write code. The few times I've tried to tackle coding I've felt like I was (what I assume) having a stroke and did nothing but make me feel like an idiot and wonder how anyone could possibly think like that. Writing a hello world in qbasic was pushing my sanity.

supernova87a 7y ago

You sound like an articulate, aware, motivated person. May I ask what industry you're in? Perhaps you're in a business that fundamentally doesn't reward experience without a degree, and you should seek some arrangement outside of this traditional employment path where you can be rewarded.

ryanmercer 7y ago
>May I ask what industry you're in? I clear international freight through customs, paperwork. I had no desire to do this job, 13 years ago I was unemployed and this was the first place to call me for an interview and the only to make me an offer. I'm days away from 13 years of being here, in that time I've had exactly 1 company make me another job offer - paying me less and requiring some international travel, in the same industry. I declined. I had another interview me, it was mostly the same industry but doing a different role. When the guy told me "now I don't offer my employees insurance because my wife works at Lilly's and I'm on hers" I thanked him for his time and said no thank you, turns out aside from 2 warehouses in Georgia (the country) he only had a few employees. I've tried and tried and tried to get a job in any industry making the same as I do now and nothing. It's always no reply, sorry you don't have a degree, sorry you filed bankruptcy, you're great but we went with someone else try again in 12 month. I had one company hire me for remote customer service, just trying to diversify my CV since it is absurdly narrow after 13 years doing the same thing, but never once did they ask me if I'd filed bankruptcy after a handful of interviews. They issued me equipment, trained me, and had me do a day of work. The next morning I tried to log on and my credentials were invalid... had no way to contact anyone since I couldn't even boot the Chromebook to use the chat tools to contact the manager. With some great effort I finally got someone to reply to me from the company after a few days "you need to return your equipment immediately or we will bill you for it, we sent the label to your email" uhhh the email I can't access "ugh, I will see what I can do". Never once explained why but I have no criminal record and no legal anything against me except my bankruptcy and they didn't have me fill out the background check form until AFTER I started working for them. A few days after I got mailed them the (filthy, sticky, dead battery, heavily used) chromebook back I got a nice envelope from their outside legal counsel with print outs of my social media, me posting in their subreddit weeks and I think even months before even interviewing for them defending and praising them, my LinkedIn, my AngelList profile with a cease and desist stating I do not work for them, I was an independent contractor, and my contract was terminated and that I needed to immediately stop referring to them by name online as well as remove any claim that I was ever in their employ or legal action would be taken against me. They were in the financial sector. I'm still afraid to even mention their name online, it was disturbingly creepy how much printed screenshots they sent. So yeah, even when I do find something that doesn't care about the degree, then I have the stigma of a bankruptcy which apparently as far as the government (for security clearances) and for most companies dealing with finances makes you wholly untrustworthy and ineligible for employment. Sorry for the semi-tangent there, I'm still very bitter about that because I was so excited that I could get remote and customer service for a tech-co experience and used a favor to get an introduction to the company/founder to help get me that job and kinda went off on a rant.

switchbak 7y ago

Honestly, I think a lot of people in your position just lie about having a degree. I wouldn't recommend it though, the downside is large (and it's not ethical). How about an online degree? At your level of seniority no one even cares about grades or how long the degree was. It's usually only: type of degree (bachelor's, Master's, etc), and if it's a well known school or not. I don't even go into detail about my degree, just where I went and what degree it was. Jumping ship is really the only way to get a good raise in this business. Go to a bigger city if you have to so you have more choices. Really avoid the "tell us your salary history" trap. If you get on with a good company, their healthcare plan should cover you from the unforeseen windfalls. Otherwise you could move somewhere that has a reasonable government healthcare program (semi serious here). If you actually have a proven ability to provide value in an important capacity, that's actually quite bankable. Maybe have someone help you with your resume, and self marketing. You ought to be able to double your income (WAG here, I don't know what you do). I've worked with folks in your situation - and I find it shocking how some people will accept being so radically underpaid. Research the market, what you're really worth, and stand up for it until you get it.

ryanmercer 7y ago
>How about an online degree? Online degrees are often more expensive than in-state school (my current employer has partnered with a major university for a SPECIFIC online degree at 420$!!! a credit hour and will reimburse a whopping 5k of that a year), still require proctored exams. And again, it's still going to take 4-6 years to get a BA/BS with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and puts me at 38-40 competing against 20-22 year old applicants. Age discrimination is very real and 22 year olds often have far lower expenses than 40 year olds, so they will work for less.

fencepost 7y ago

First, screw reddit. Probably one of the best things you can do is leave those subs - they're letting you compare where you are to what other people choose to share about how they're doing. (edit: also remember that in 2008ish there were a lot of 'incredibly successful' people that turned out to be leveraged to the eyeballs or higher and borrowing money to keep up appearances until they lost the McMansions and the expensive cars got repo'd) Second, if you're applying mostly for large corporate jobs you're applying with companies that have established streamlined processes to get employees who are good enough and will fit their molds. Their regular hiring processes aren't designed to filter up the good hires, they're designed to filter out bad ones and they get enough volume that they don't care about false positives. If you want to be at one of those companies you'll have to do it through networking to take you past that first (and maybe second) filter. Are you looking at smaller companies at all? Is what you do or have the skills for relevant at a company of 10-100 employees? Heck, even "Why are you leaving?" has a great answer - "At a giant company like $F advancement has rock solid rules, and without spending years and $thousands on schooling it's clear that there's no upward path for me within the company. I have bigger goals, which is why I'm interested in smaller but growing companies like $interviewer's. This is nothing against schooling - I've taken advantage of a lot of educational opportunities available - but I feel like I'd be stagnating where I am while trying to reach their filtering bar."

ryanmercer 7y ago
>First, screw reddit. Probably one of the best things you can do is leave those subs - they're letting you compare where you are to what other people choose to share about how they're doing. I'd agree except they aren't making outrageous claims, they are simply people that got decent STEM jobs at 22ish and have been living frugally socking away as much as they can. Their starting salaries are 2-3x what I make after 13 years. I still get plenty of benefit from subs like /r/leanfire, it's just mildly depressing seeing 22-24 year olds making way more than me with far more career advancement opportunities and in industries that actually get raises, negotiable salaries and bonuses, things largely alien outside of STEM except for at corporate levels.

sct202 7y ago

Don't discount the work experience that you do have. You have over a decade of individual experiences that you can frame up to communicate your strengths and what you can bring to the table. You don't need to market yourself as cheap labor, or else people will discount what you are capable of bringing to the table.