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>High costs are still keeping people out of higher education. I did a bachelor's in Engineering, did community college, commuted from home, worked full time. G

>High costs are still keeping people out of higher education. I did a bachelor's in Engineering, did community college, commuted from home, worked full time. Graduated without debt or mommy and daddys money. What I did is unacceptable to most internet commentators. I don't understand why this hard lifestyle is unacceptable and impossible. I clearly did it. If we say this possible outcome is too hard for most people, I want to nail down the impossible part.

Fomite 7y ago
"commuted from home..." "Graduated without debt or mommy and daddys money." One of these things is not like the others. If you lived rent free at your parent's home, you did it with your parent's money. I know a number of people who, come 18, were on their own.
- graeme 7y ago
  What's your estimate for the percent of the university population for whom it would have been impossible to live at home and commute to a local college? I don't imagine it's more than 20% and I expect it is substantially less. If so, what is the point of your objection? The bast majority of people could do what OP did, but don't. That's interesting.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Social stigma is powerful. I took an extra $60-70k in debt to go to school in Chicago instead of DC, where I could have commuted from home. It’s our culture. College is supposed to be a 4-year vacation where binge drink and do a lot of drugs. Hard to do that when you’re living at home.
    - t3rabytes 7y ago
      Not questioning your decision making, but DC seems like a fine place to go to college. I would've gone to Georgetown or GW without any qualms, same way that I decided to go to NC State (even though I've lived just outside of Raleigh since middle school). Disclosure: I went to college 50 minutes away from where my parents lived and still lived on campus because I had to get out of living in the middle of nowhere and a 50 minute commute to class wasn't my thing.
      - tdfx 7y ago
        DC is a wildly expensive place to go to college. GW is consistently ranked amongst the most expensive colleges in the US. Even if you're on a full ride, you likely won't be able to pay your living expenses with a part-time job.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - Tade0 7y ago
    I don't imagine it's more than 20% and I expect it is substantially less. Why do you think so many colleges have so much housing infrastructure? Most people study grew up in places without any decent universities within commuting distance.
    - graeme 7y ago
      Because culturally, Americans have a tradition of going away to college. It's not just the elite universities that have housing infrastructure.
      - Tade0 7y ago
        Ok, but there's also as much infrastructure in Europe. I remember that I was one of the few students in my year who grew up in the city in which my alma mater was based.
        graeme 7y ago
        Was your school terrible? If not, surely the students in that city could have gone there if they wanted to save money, no? Which was my point. I couldn’t find stats, but my impressions is dorms are way more common in america.
        Tade0 7y ago
        If not, surely the students in that city could have gone there if they wanted to save money, no? Top university in my country, so not everyone could to begin with. For the same reason each region - aside from those who had good schools themselves - was represented roughly proportionally to its population.
- throwayEngineer 7y ago
  To clarify, I had a 600 dollar/mo apartment I paid for near my job. This was 1 hour away from school. I drove my Aunt's beater car she gave me for 15 years of nearly unpaid yardwork. I did accept a 9 year old desktop computer from my dad. I did have a girlfriend that was supportive, let me nap in her dorm. I'm sure if you try hard enough, you can find 1 friend or family member that gives me privilege. I don't have anything further to contribute, but I wanted to frame the entire situation. Maybe it's these obscure privileges that made it possible.
  - bananocurrency 7y ago
    Your aunt gave you a car and your dad gave you a computer? I can't believe you were able to graduate with the odds stacked against you like that.
- swoongoonz 7y ago
  this. I wanted to go to community college but that was not an option in my house. I was 17 when I took out massive loans. I feel stupid but I really don't know what else I should have done.
rubidium 7y ago
I’m assuming you had supportive parents in a relatively stable home life with no kids of your own to support or major medical issues. Yes, with those in place the route you took is totally doable (agreed it’s strenuous).
- rayiner 7y ago
  Thats a small minority of people who go to college. What about the majority? And if we’re concerned about those with unique challenges, why not just figure out how to help those people, instead of free college for everyone?
  - wisty 7y ago
    People haven't heard of the Unjust World Fallacy - that not everyone with a bad life doesn't deserve it.
- oreo83 7y ago
  "with no kids of your own to support" This is a choice though...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tombert 7y ago
I feel like you are engaging in some survivorship bias [1]; I'm glad you were able to graduate without debt or any kind of special help, but there are a million factors that could have influenced that, and it feels a bit reductionist to act like all of the problems of student-load debt can be expressed as just people choosing expensive schools and are too lazy to work while going to school full-time. I did very poorly in school, dropped out before I had a chanced to have too much debt, but have done relatively well in the professional market. Would you say it's good advice for me to tell everyone to drop out, because it worked out fine for me? I don't think it would be; people are different. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > it feels a bit reductionist to act like all of the problems of student-load debt can be expressed as just people choosing expensive schools and are too lazy to work while going to school full-time Who said "all"? I will assert, without data because per-school or per-school-type data is hard to come by, that most of the debt problems are caused by students choosing (or being pressured) to attend expensive private or out-of-state schools with insufficient financial aid.
  - tombert 7y ago
    Sure, and maybe I misinterpreted a bit of what the OP was saying, but the impression I got was an almost-hostile tone of "this stuff is your fault because you couldn't settle for a cheaper school", and I do think that's reductionist. However, if that wasn't the OP's intent then I admit fault and apologize.
Wohlf 7y ago
You don't even have to go this far, with just a little planning you can get your entire degree for the cost of a decent car. Tuition for an in-state public college is ~$10k per year. Private colleges and out of state are ~$25k. Community college including fees is just ~$3k per year. Go to community college for 2 years, don't take summers off, live within your means, stay at home or get roommates, work part time for your living expenses. I see people complaining about $25k per year, $100k in student loans. It's absolutely absurd.
- greedo 7y ago
  This. My daughter will be going to college in a year, and it'll cost about $8k annually. She'll live at home, drive a 15 year old hand me down car, and have to miss out on all the social stuff that non-commuters enjoy. But hopefully she'll graduate with 0 debt. My wife wants her to spend the first year on campus, and I always counter with "Is that experience worth $12K in debt?"
  - asdff 7y ago
    In my experience, it is. College can be lonely and difficult, compounded with your highschool friends largely dispersing around the country during that time. I made friends in the dorms I still see regularly today, made many more from friends of friends in the dorms as well.
- lzol 7y ago
  State colleges really vary by state. I grew up in Pennsylvania and when I graduated, our in-state tuition was already the highest in the country at around 16k. Now it's nearly $23k a year just for tuition in PA [0]. I went to a private college with nearly quadruple the sticker price and was actually paying less than my peers who went to Pitt and Penn State. You're right about the community college. That is absolutely a way to save money, but in states like PA, you'd still have to pay nearly $46k for tuition alone. That's not including housing or transportation costs. It's not as easy as "2 years at community college and then transfer to a state school" for everyone. [0]http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/pennsylvania/ http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/pennsylvania/
- 7y ago
povertyworld 7y ago
Why is cheap school unacceptable to commenters here? Well, just look around... see anybody from community college at YC, other than the guy who sweeps the floor after demo day?
- leetcrew 7y ago
  I don't think people object to "cheap school" in the abstract. people object to the implementation of "cheap school" where they end up subsidizing it for others. of this group, some people hate it just because they hate contributing money towards any government program, but others might have (reasonable imo) concerns for what kinds of majors they are paying for, whether their money will be spent efficiently, etc. edit: maybe I misunderstood the point of your post; I thought you were talking about providing cheap school.
bananocurrency 7y ago
You really think that was a hard lifestyle? >If we say this possible outcome is too hard for most people, I want to nail down the impossible part. When did anyone say this was too hard or impossible? I'm really happy that you were able to get the degree you wanted in a high demand field. Can you take a second to see how lucky you really are, instead of trying to make yourself feel better in this insane "just world" you're creating? Do you honestly believe that anyone else who didn't just get a degree in engineering at a time where engineering is in demand is just lazy?
qntty 7y ago
Most people want college to be more than just classes, and that's not an unreasonable expectation. As a practical reality, many people wouldn't be able to (psychologically) handle such a lifestyle for 4 years. Many people struggle to get through college even with the support of a campus community and the resources that entails.
radcon 7y ago
And then...? You got a high-paying job? You started a successful company? You finally sold more than 300 copies of your eBook? If you want to prove the article wrong, you're going to have to demonstrate more than just the fact that you got a piece of paper. If you can't do that, then you're actually proving the article's point.
isoskeles 7y ago
Who is saying this is unacceptable? Is it the community college part? I figure people don’t care about the rest of it.
ObnoxiousProxy 7y ago
Just out of curiosity, when did you go to college?
- throwayEngineer 7y ago
  Graduated in 2012
peisistratos 7y ago
This is basically what I did as well. Worked, went to a nearby good state college at night and on weekends, CS major, no debt. Did as many classes as I could handle per semester. Initially I lived with my parents, but was in my own apartment later on. Worked out for me.
cableshaft 7y ago
When did you do it though? That's a key thing. The price of college has changed drastically in the past 20 years. I experienced the change myself because I dropped out after going to school for two years and went back to school 9 years later to finish my degree. By the time I got back I was kicking myself for not taking out student loans then and staying in school, because the same education was now more than double the price, and I ended up having to take out loans anyway, and twice as much as I would have before. I'm just about done paying them off, 8 years after I graduated.

Fomite 7y ago

"commuted from home..." "Graduated without debt or mommy and daddys money." One of these things is not like the others. If you lived rent free at your parent's home, you did it with your parent's money. I know a number of people who, come 18, were on their own.

graeme 7y ago
What's your estimate for the percent of the university population for whom it would have been impossible to live at home and commute to a local college? I don't imagine it's more than 20% and I expect it is substantially less. If so, what is the point of your objection? The bast majority of people could do what OP did, but don't. That's interesting.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Social stigma is powerful. I took an extra $60-70k in debt to go to school in Chicago instead of DC, where I could have commuted from home. It’s our culture. College is supposed to be a 4-year vacation where binge drink and do a lot of drugs. Hard to do that when you’re living at home.
  - t3rabytes 7y ago
    Not questioning your decision making, but DC seems like a fine place to go to college. I would've gone to Georgetown or GW without any qualms, same way that I decided to go to NC State (even though I've lived just outside of Raleigh since middle school). Disclosure: I went to college 50 minutes away from where my parents lived and still lived on campus because I had to get out of living in the middle of nowhere and a 50 minute commute to class wasn't my thing.
    - tdfx 7y ago
      DC is a wildly expensive place to go to college. GW is consistently ranked amongst the most expensive colleges in the US. Even if you're on a full ride, you likely won't be able to pay your living expenses with a part-time job.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- Tade0 7y ago
  I don't imagine it's more than 20% and I expect it is substantially less. Why do you think so many colleges have so much housing infrastructure? Most people study grew up in places without any decent universities within commuting distance.
  - graeme 7y ago
    Because culturally, Americans have a tradition of going away to college. It's not just the elite universities that have housing infrastructure.
    - Tade0 7y ago
      Ok, but there's also as much infrastructure in Europe. I remember that I was one of the few students in my year who grew up in the city in which my alma mater was based.
      - graeme 7y ago
        Was your school terrible? If not, surely the students in that city could have gone there if they wanted to save money, no? Which was my point. I couldn’t find stats, but my impressions is dorms are way more common in america.
        Tade0 7y ago
        If not, surely the students in that city could have gone there if they wanted to save money, no? Top university in my country, so not everyone could to begin with. For the same reason each region - aside from those who had good schools themselves - was represented roughly proportionally to its population.
throwayEngineer 7y ago
To clarify, I had a 600 dollar/mo apartment I paid for near my job. This was 1 hour away from school. I drove my Aunt's beater car she gave me for 15 years of nearly unpaid yardwork. I did accept a 9 year old desktop computer from my dad. I did have a girlfriend that was supportive, let me nap in her dorm. I'm sure if you try hard enough, you can find 1 friend or family member that gives me privilege. I don't have anything further to contribute, but I wanted to frame the entire situation. Maybe it's these obscure privileges that made it possible.
- bananocurrency 7y ago
  Your aunt gave you a car and your dad gave you a computer? I can't believe you were able to graduate with the odds stacked against you like that.
swoongoonz 7y ago
this. I wanted to go to community college but that was not an option in my house. I was 17 when I took out massive loans. I feel stupid but I really don't know what else I should have done.

rubidium 7y ago

I’m assuming you had supportive parents in a relatively stable home life with no kids of your own to support or major medical issues. Yes, with those in place the route you took is totally doable (agreed it’s strenuous).

rayiner 7y ago
Thats a small minority of people who go to college. What about the majority? And if we’re concerned about those with unique challenges, why not just figure out how to help those people, instead of free college for everyone?
- wisty 7y ago
  People haven't heard of the Unjust World Fallacy - that not everyone with a bad life doesn't deserve it.
oreo83 7y ago
"with no kids of your own to support" This is a choice though...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

tombert 7y ago

I feel like you are engaging in some survivorship bias [1]; I'm glad you were able to graduate without debt or any kind of special help, but there are a million factors that could have influenced that, and it feels a bit reductionist to act like all of the problems of student-load debt can be expressed as just people choosing expensive schools and are too lazy to work while going to school full-time. I did very poorly in school, dropped out before I had a chanced to have too much debt, but have done relatively well in the professional market. Would you say it's good advice for me to tell everyone to drop out, because it worked out fine for me? I don't think it would be; people are different. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

vonmoltke 7y ago
> it feels a bit reductionist to act like all of the problems of student-load debt can be expressed as just people choosing expensive schools and are too lazy to work while going to school full-time Who said "all"? I will assert, without data because per-school or per-school-type data is hard to come by, that most of the debt problems are caused by students choosing (or being pressured) to attend expensive private or out-of-state schools with insufficient financial aid.
- tombert 7y ago
  Sure, and maybe I misinterpreted a bit of what the OP was saying, but the impression I got was an almost-hostile tone of "this stuff is your fault because you couldn't settle for a cheaper school", and I do think that's reductionist. However, if that wasn't the OP's intent then I admit fault and apologize.

Wohlf 7y ago

You don't even have to go this far, with just a little planning you can get your entire degree for the cost of a decent car. Tuition for an in-state public college is ~$10k per year. Private colleges and out of state are ~$25k. Community college including fees is just ~$3k per year. Go to community college for 2 years, don't take summers off, live within your means, stay at home or get roommates, work part time for your living expenses. I see people complaining about $25k per year, $100k in student loans. It's absolutely absurd.

greedo 7y ago
This. My daughter will be going to college in a year, and it'll cost about $8k annually. She'll live at home, drive a 15 year old hand me down car, and have to miss out on all the social stuff that non-commuters enjoy. But hopefully she'll graduate with 0 debt. My wife wants her to spend the first year on campus, and I always counter with "Is that experience worth $12K in debt?"
- asdff 7y ago
  In my experience, it is. College can be lonely and difficult, compounded with your highschool friends largely dispersing around the country during that time. I made friends in the dorms I still see regularly today, made many more from friends of friends in the dorms as well.
lzol 7y ago
State colleges really vary by state. I grew up in Pennsylvania and when I graduated, our in-state tuition was already the highest in the country at around 16k. Now it's nearly $23k a year just for tuition in PA [0]. I went to a private college with nearly quadruple the sticker price and was actually paying less than my peers who went to Pitt and Penn State. You're right about the community college. That is absolutely a way to save money, but in states like PA, you'd still have to pay nearly $46k for tuition alone. That's not including housing or transportation costs. It's not as easy as "2 years at community college and then transfer to a state school" for everyone. [0]http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/pennsylvania/ http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/pennsylvania/
7y ago

povertyworld 7y ago

Why is cheap school unacceptable to commenters here? Well, just look around... see anybody from community college at YC, other than the guy who sweeps the floor after demo day?

leetcrew 7y ago
I don't think people object to "cheap school" in the abstract. people object to the implementation of "cheap school" where they end up subsidizing it for others. of this group, some people hate it just because they hate contributing money towards any government program, but others might have (reasonable imo) concerns for what kinds of majors they are paying for, whether their money will be spent efficiently, etc. edit: maybe I misunderstood the point of your post; I thought you were talking about providing cheap school.

bananocurrency 7y ago

You really think that was a hard lifestyle? >If we say this possible outcome is too hard for most people, I want to nail down the impossible part. When did anyone say this was too hard or impossible? I'm really happy that you were able to get the degree you wanted in a high demand field. Can you take a second to see how lucky you really are, instead of trying to make yourself feel better in this insane "just world" you're creating? Do you honestly believe that anyone else who didn't just get a degree in engineering at a time where engineering is in demand is just lazy?

qntty 7y ago

Most people want college to be more than just classes, and that's not an unreasonable expectation. As a practical reality, many people wouldn't be able to (psychologically) handle such a lifestyle for 4 years. Many people struggle to get through college even with the support of a campus community and the resources that entails.

radcon 7y ago

And then...? You got a high-paying job? You started a successful company? You finally sold more than 300 copies of your eBook? If you want to prove the article wrong, you're going to have to demonstrate more than just the fact that you got a piece of paper. If you can't do that, then you're actually proving the article's point.

isoskeles 7y ago

Who is saying this is unacceptable? Is it the community college part? I figure people don’t care about the rest of it.

ObnoxiousProxy 7y ago

Just out of curiosity, when did you go to college?

throwayEngineer 7y ago
Graduated in 2012

peisistratos 7y ago

This is basically what I did as well. Worked, went to a nearby good state college at night and on weekends, CS major, no debt. Did as many classes as I could handle per semester. Initially I lived with my parents, but was in my own apartment later on. Worked out for me.

cableshaft 7y ago

When did you do it though? That's a key thing. The price of college has changed drastically in the past 20 years. I experienced the change myself because I dropped out after going to school for two years and went back to school 9 years later to finish my degree. By the time I got back I was kicking myself for not taking out student loans then and staying in school, because the same education was now more than double the price, and I ended up having to take out loans anyway, and twice as much as I would have before. I'm just about done paying them off, 8 years after I graduated.