4 ms·

That video is very US centric. In Europe in particular, police officers are not such an enemy. Also, in UK, refusing to talk to police at first contact can be

by 781 7y ago

That video is very US centric. In Europe in particular, police officers are not such an enemy. Also, in UK, refusing to talk to police at first contact can be used against you, for example it will be more difficult later to introduce exculpatory evidence that you were supposed to know of at the time you refused to speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence_in_England_and_Wales#Adverse_inferences_from_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence_in_England_an...

chrisseaton 7y ago
I believe the reason for this is the idea that it's a massive waste of the public's time and resources for you to refuse to reveal evidence which could have stopped the prosecution well before it went to trial.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  Yes, most of Europe/the World uses a "civil law" system which is much less adversarial than the U.S. & U.K.'s "common law" system.[1] Fun fact: because of their French (and to a lesser degree, Spanish) influence, Louisiana's laws still follow a civil law system. [1] https://www.apprendre-le-droit.fr/anglais-juridique/what-is-the-difference-between-common-law-and-civil-law/ https://www.apprendre-le-droit.fr/anglais-juridique/what-is-...
  - ultrarunner 7y ago
    And yet Louisiana has one of the highest (if not the highest) rate of incarcerations per-100k in the country[0]. Perhaps ‘less adversarial’ doesn’t count for much when it comes to the business end of the law. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incarceration_and_correctional_supervision_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incar...
    - elliekelly 7y ago
      Since most European countries (civil law systems) don't have such high incarceration rates and considering the U.S. (common law system) has one of the highest I don't think it's fair to attribute Louisiana's high incarceration rate to the state's civil law system. Louisiana is one of the poorest states in the country and has one of the highest contracted private prison quotas in the country (96% occupancy).[1] And until recently, Louisiana had some of the harshest mandatory minimum drug sentencing requirements.[2] They still have harsh mandatory minimums for other offenses. If you're looking for an explanation for Louisiana's criminal justice issues those factors are the far more likely explanations than the existence of a civil law system. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Department_of_Public_Safety_%26_Corrections https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Department_of_Publ... [2] https://www.pewtrusts.org/-/media/assets/2018/03/pspp_louisianas_2017_criminal_justice_reforms.pdf https://www.pewtrusts.org/-/media/assets/2018/03/pspp_louisi...
kjsbfkjbf 7y ago
> In Europe in particular, police officers are not such an enemy. Everywhere in the world the police are your enemy. They exist as the manifestation of a state's domestic violence.
- Retra 7y ago
  So we should abolish police worldwide? Or is there maybe some nuanced angle there that the state might be operating on your behalf?
  - MichaelBurge 7y ago
    They're operating on your behalf when they're talking to other people. When they're talking to you, they're your enemy.
    - Retra 7y ago
      I just don't think this 'enemy' rhetoric is all that accurate. Dealing with the police is like handling volatile high explosives; sometimes you have to do it, but they definitely have their purpose, but you'd be a fool to handle the interaction carelessly. Reducing that to merely 'enemy' conflates them with harmful things that serve no purpose at all. Like stupidity.
      - Faark 7y ago
        Seems a lot like a typical prisoners dilemma. Everyone treating each other hostile would give a worse overall outcome, but individually it seems like the best strategy.
- mcv 7y ago
  In a democracy, the state shouldn't be your enemy either. The state should represent you, as should the police.
  - danharaj 7y ago
some_random 7y ago
That sounds pretty dysfunctional to me, unless UK laws are so simple and clear cut that anyone can be expected to know and recall them.
johnnycab 7y ago
>in UK, refusing to talk to police at first contact can be used against you If you have read any of the anonymous blogs by those on the Job, they almost always tell you to either keep your mouth shut or say as little as possible ─ this was the wisdom imparted by 'Nightjack' before he got outed and had to delete his blog, subsequently going on to win accolades and the Orwell Prize.[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20090426201221/http://nightjack.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/a-survival-guide-for-decent-folk/ https://web.archive.org/web/20090426201221/http://nightjack.... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_(blogger) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_(blogger)

by 781 7y ago

chrisseaton 7y ago

I believe the reason for this is the idea that it's a massive waste of the public's time and resources for you to refuse to reveal evidence which could have stopped the prosecution well before it went to trial.

elliekelly 7y ago
Yes, most of Europe/the World uses a "civil law" system which is much less adversarial than the U.S. & U.K.'s "common law" system.[1] Fun fact: because of their French (and to a lesser degree, Spanish) influence, Louisiana's laws still follow a civil law system. [1] https://www.apprendre-le-droit.fr/anglais-juridique/what-is-the-difference-between-common-law-and-civil-law/ https://www.apprendre-le-droit.fr/anglais-juridique/what-is-...
- ultrarunner 7y ago
  And yet Louisiana has one of the highest (if not the highest) rate of incarcerations per-100k in the country[0]. Perhaps ‘less adversarial’ doesn’t count for much when it comes to the business end of the law. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incarceration_and_correctional_supervision_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incar...
  - elliekelly 7y ago
    Since most European countries (civil law systems) don't have such high incarceration rates and considering the U.S. (common law system) has one of the highest I don't think it's fair to attribute Louisiana's high incarceration rate to the state's civil law system. Louisiana is one of the poorest states in the country and has one of the highest contracted private prison quotas in the country (96% occupancy).[1] And until recently, Louisiana had some of the harshest mandatory minimum drug sentencing requirements.[2] They still have harsh mandatory minimums for other offenses. If you're looking for an explanation for Louisiana's criminal justice issues those factors are the far more likely explanations than the existence of a civil law system. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Department_of_Public_Safety_%26_Corrections https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Department_of_Publ... [2] https://www.pewtrusts.org/-/media/assets/2018/03/pspp_louisianas_2017_criminal_justice_reforms.pdf https://www.pewtrusts.org/-/media/assets/2018/03/pspp_louisi...

kjsbfkjbf 7y ago

> In Europe in particular, police officers are not such an enemy. Everywhere in the world the police are your enemy. They exist as the manifestation of a state's domestic violence.

Retra 7y ago
So we should abolish police worldwide? Or is there maybe some nuanced angle there that the state might be operating on your behalf?
- MichaelBurge 7y ago
  They're operating on your behalf when they're talking to other people. When they're talking to you, they're your enemy.
  - Retra 7y ago
    I just don't think this 'enemy' rhetoric is all that accurate. Dealing with the police is like handling volatile high explosives; sometimes you have to do it, but they definitely have their purpose, but you'd be a fool to handle the interaction carelessly. Reducing that to merely 'enemy' conflates them with harmful things that serve no purpose at all. Like stupidity.
    - Faark 7y ago
      Seems a lot like a typical prisoners dilemma. Everyone treating each other hostile would give a worse overall outcome, but individually it seems like the best strategy.
mcv 7y ago
In a democracy, the state shouldn't be your enemy either. The state should represent you, as should the police.
- danharaj 7y ago

some_random 7y ago

That sounds pretty dysfunctional to me, unless UK laws are so simple and clear cut that anyone can be expected to know and recall them.

johnnycab 7y ago

>in UK, refusing to talk to police at first contact can be used against you If you have read any of the anonymous blogs by those on the Job, they almost always tell you to either keep your mouth shut or say as little as possible ─ this was the wisdom imparted by 'Nightjack' before he got outed and had to delete his blog, subsequently going on to win accolades and the Orwell Prize.[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20090426201221/http://nightjack.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/a-survival-guide-for-decent-folk/ https://web.archive.org/web/20090426201221/http://nightjack.... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_(blogger) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_(blogger)