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> The glass containers can be reused, but not that many times on average, and it takes sufficiently more energy to produce one vs. the energy required to recycl

by nik736 7y ago

> The glass containers can be reused, but not that many times on average, and it takes sufficiently more energy to produce one vs. the energy required to recycle a plastic bottle. Is there any source for this? In Germany for example we have the option to buy bottled water in glass or plastic. Glass bottles are reusable, while plastic bottles are either one-way (majority) or reusable. The glass bottles are reused an average of 50x, while the one-way plastic bottles obviously are only used once. There are some reusable plastic bottles, but they are only reused max. 12x if not a lot less. Looking at these numbers alone tells me that glass bottles are way better for our environment compared to plastic bottles. So I am a bit confused by your statement.

vidarh 7y ago
It's long since I've looked at this, so I don't have sources handy, but it's nowhere near as simple as you suggest. Specifically you can not tell from your numbers alone. Glass bottles are far more energy-expensive to transport. Both filled, but also empty where plastic bottles can be packed far denser. Reuse of bottles is also not energy-free: it takes transport, where transport of plastic bottles or cans is even cheaper, as depending they may be crushed before transport. After transport, bottles for reuse must be cleaned and sterilized. Combined with the much lower energy costs of recycling a plastic bottle vs. the already low costs of producing one, the difference between reusing a glass bottle and recycling a plastic bottle is low enough that it takes very high return rates and good quality returns to break even. As far as I remember it certainly is possible and it might well have improved since I last saw numbers, but it's not an automatic given until/unless you have sufficiently high return rates (Germany possibly does - I don't remember the precise return rates, but I believe they're similar to Scandinavia well above 90%), and can ensure you're able to reuse enough times.
- nik736 7y ago
  Got your points, interesting. I just wanted to add to your last paragraph that we are paying 25ct per one-way plastic bottle on top of the regular price, we get it back when we return the bottle. That means the return rate is super high, because otherwise people will lose a lot of money. I think the system is quite good.
  - vidarh 7y ago
    Same in Scandinavia. I do agree it works well, and it's critical in order to make reuse cost effective, because consider that if you were to have only 10% of bottles not being returned, then that means 10% of bottles are never even available to reuse even once, of the 90% reused, you'd expect 10% (so 9 percentage points) are never reused twice, and so on - drastically driving down the average number of reuses possible even if you assume every returned bottle is perfect. As far as I can tell return rates in Germany, as in Scandinavia, are much higher than 90% - up to 99% for some categories, so it likely is high enough to be worth it.

by nik736 7y ago

vidarh 7y ago

It's long since I've looked at this, so I don't have sources handy, but it's nowhere near as simple as you suggest. Specifically you can not tell from your numbers alone. Glass bottles are far more energy-expensive to transport. Both filled, but also empty where plastic bottles can be packed far denser. Reuse of bottles is also not energy-free: it takes transport, where transport of plastic bottles or cans is even cheaper, as depending they may be crushed before transport. After transport, bottles for reuse must be cleaned and sterilized. Combined with the much lower energy costs of recycling a plastic bottle vs. the already low costs of producing one, the difference between reusing a glass bottle and recycling a plastic bottle is low enough that it takes very high return rates and good quality returns to break even. As far as I remember it certainly is possible and it might well have improved since I last saw numbers, but it's not an automatic given until/unless you have sufficiently high return rates (Germany possibly does - I don't remember the precise return rates, but I believe they're similar to Scandinavia well above 90%), and can ensure you're able to reuse enough times.

nik736 7y ago
Got your points, interesting. I just wanted to add to your last paragraph that we are paying 25ct per one-way plastic bottle on top of the regular price, we get it back when we return the bottle. That means the return rate is super high, because otherwise people will lose a lot of money. I think the system is quite good.
- vidarh 7y ago
  Same in Scandinavia. I do agree it works well, and it's critical in order to make reuse cost effective, because consider that if you were to have only 10% of bottles not being returned, then that means 10% of bottles are never even available to reuse even once, of the 90% reused, you'd expect 10% (so 9 percentage points) are never reused twice, and so on - drastically driving down the average number of reuses possible even if you assume every returned bottle is perfect. As far as I can tell return rates in Germany, as in Scandinavia, are much higher than 90% - up to 99% for some categories, so it likely is high enough to be worth it.