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> Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. What are you saying, and what

> Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. What are you saying, and what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? Please think very carefully before answering. Edit: have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide?

laumars 7y ago
> What are you saying Literally all I'm saying is suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. > what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? I don't really want to get into an off topic discussion about mental health which is why I didn't go into more detail in my previous post. However if you want more information about mental health then you can visit https://www.mind.org.uk/ https://www.mind.org.uk/ > Please think very carefully before answering. The tone of your posts are very antagonistic. I can't tell if this is intentional or not but it isn't pleasant to read. > have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide? Yes
- DanBC 7y ago
  I agree with what you're saying. This point, however, is wrong. I don't think it being wrong changes your argument at all. > suicide is a [...] a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Lots of people who die by suicide do not have a history of mental illness and would not meet a definition of "mentally ill" at the time of their death. They die because of rapid onset despair rather than mental illness. They are "capacitous" - they know what they're doing and why they're doing it and they know the consequences and they've made the choice.
  - laumars 7y ago
    It's a misconception that mental illness means someone who isn't capacitous. Granted that can be the case at the extreme end of the spectrum but the term is a lot broader than that.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      Please read the researchers. Many people who die by suicide don't meet the criteria for mental illness at the time of their death and haven't had a history of mental ill health. https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408
      - laumars 7y ago
        I wasn't disagreeing with the point that not everyone who commits suicide is mentally ill. I was disagreeing with your point that all sufferers of mental illness are in a state of psychosis. I also disagree with how you're interchanging "history of mental ill health" with "mental illness" because it's not always something one is born with. Lastly I don't think those twitter links are the best examples of your point because they are ostensibly saying "It's not a forgone conclusion; more research is needed." Which I absolutely do agree with. However, to get back to point, I do agree that not everyone who has suicidal thoughts, or who is suicidal, is mentally ill. I was being rather terse in my earlier post and in doing so had obviously mislead. So apologies for that.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  I am being antagonistic because I have the suspicion I'm being antagonised, though out of an abundance of (misplaced) goodwill. > suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness DanBC replied succinctly. I can't add to it. I'm getting badly uptight because ISTM you may have defined suicide into something you are morally required to intervene in, and prevent. From your orig post: "...given support to help enable them to grow into better people..." I'm afraid of people who may try to help me and make things worse. See my post about how helpful were towards gays not too long ago. Suicide has been attractive to me and is becoming attractive again. I DO NOT WANT any fucker trying to affect my choices 'for the better'. I'm afraid that may be you. I'm afraid you may have fallen exactly into the trap of defining 'better' outcomes in a way that disrespects the choices of others. From my fear, and partly my perceived presumption on your part but mostly from fear, comes anger borne not of aggression but defensiveness, hence the tone of my reply. In short, you scared me. I'm not mentally well right now (perhaps you'd care to look back over some of my prior posts) and I misjudge things, so please understand I'm struggling with what I may have mis-perceived in your words. You may not be saying at all what I read.
  - laumars 7y ago
    > I'm getting badly uptight because ISTM you may have defined suicide into something you are morally required to intervene in, and prevent. From your orig post: "...given support to help enable them to grow into better people..." You're obsessing over one sentence, pulling it apart and taking it completely out of context - even after I have already clarified what I meant. I have repeatedly made the case that support for "at risk" people (in terms of criminal activity) should be non-interfearing and in a way that offers them choice. This is the exact opposite of the example you gave regarding the persecution of homosexuality. I've also said I'm not even going to engage in a debate about mental illness. I've supplied a link for you to read up on - if you want to know more. However if you do have suicidal thoughts then please do talk to someone - trust me, it helps. And even if you're not suicidal but generally feel like your mentally unwell, talk to someone. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a friend then there are also support contact details on that charity I linked to (https://mind.org.uk https://mind.org.uk). They wont interfere nor intervene. At least not unless you ask them to.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  > it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses Sometimes. It can equally be something someone chooses with full faculty. "It is" as opposed to "sometimes it can be" makes me uncomfortable in the manner of DanBC's comment. A sweeping generalisation of cause can lead to a sweeping generalisation of response. Neither is helpful.

laumars 7y ago

> What are you saying Literally all I'm saying is suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. > what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? I don't really want to get into an off topic discussion about mental health which is why I didn't go into more detail in my previous post. However if you want more information about mental health then you can visit https://www.mind.org.uk/ https://www.mind.org.uk/ > Please think very carefully before answering. The tone of your posts are very antagonistic. I can't tell if this is intentional or not but it isn't pleasant to read. > have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide? Yes

DanBC 7y ago
I agree with what you're saying. This point, however, is wrong. I don't think it being wrong changes your argument at all. > suicide is a [...] a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Lots of people who die by suicide do not have a history of mental illness and would not meet a definition of "mentally ill" at the time of their death. They die because of rapid onset despair rather than mental illness. They are "capacitous" - they know what they're doing and why they're doing it and they know the consequences and they've made the choice.
- laumars 7y ago
  It's a misconception that mental illness means someone who isn't capacitous. Granted that can be the case at the extreme end of the spectrum but the term is a lot broader than that.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    Please read the researchers. Many people who die by suicide don't meet the criteria for mental illness at the time of their death and haven't had a history of mental ill health. https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408
    - laumars 7y ago
      I wasn't disagreeing with the point that not everyone who commits suicide is mentally ill. I was disagreeing with your point that all sufferers of mental illness are in a state of psychosis. I also disagree with how you're interchanging "history of mental ill health" with "mental illness" because it's not always something one is born with. Lastly I don't think those twitter links are the best examples of your point because they are ostensibly saying "It's not a forgone conclusion; more research is needed." Which I absolutely do agree with. However, to get back to point, I do agree that not everyone who has suicidal thoughts, or who is suicidal, is mentally ill. I was being rather terse in my earlier post and in doing so had obviously mislead. So apologies for that.
tempguy9999 7y ago
I am being antagonistic because I have the suspicion I'm being antagonised, though out of an abundance of (misplaced) goodwill. > suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness DanBC replied succinctly. I can't add to it. I'm getting badly uptight because ISTM you may have defined suicide into something you are morally required to intervene in, and prevent. From your orig post: "...given support to help enable them to grow into better people..." I'm afraid of people who may try to help me and make things worse. See my post about how helpful were towards gays not too long ago. Suicide has been attractive to me and is becoming attractive again. I DO NOT WANT any fucker trying to affect my choices 'for the better'. I'm afraid that may be you. I'm afraid you may have fallen exactly into the trap of defining 'better' outcomes in a way that disrespects the choices of others. From my fear, and partly my perceived presumption on your part but mostly from fear, comes anger borne not of aggression but defensiveness, hence the tone of my reply. In short, you scared me. I'm not mentally well right now (perhaps you'd care to look back over some of my prior posts) and I misjudge things, so please understand I'm struggling with what I may have mis-perceived in your words. You may not be saying at all what I read.
- laumars 7y ago
  > I'm getting badly uptight because ISTM you may have defined suicide into something you are morally required to intervene in, and prevent. From your orig post: "...given support to help enable them to grow into better people..." You're obsessing over one sentence, pulling it apart and taking it completely out of context - even after I have already clarified what I meant. I have repeatedly made the case that support for "at risk" people (in terms of criminal activity) should be non-interfearing and in a way that offers them choice. This is the exact opposite of the example you gave regarding the persecution of homosexuality. I've also said I'm not even going to engage in a debate about mental illness. I've supplied a link for you to read up on - if you want to know more. However if you do have suicidal thoughts then please do talk to someone - trust me, it helps. And even if you're not suicidal but generally feel like your mentally unwell, talk to someone. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a friend then there are also support contact details on that charity I linked to (https://mind.org.uk https://mind.org.uk). They wont interfere nor intervene. At least not unless you ask them to.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
> it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses Sometimes. It can equally be something someone chooses with full faculty. "It is" as opposed to "sometimes it can be" makes me uncomfortable in the manner of DanBC's comment. A sweeping generalisation of cause can lead to a sweeping generalisation of response. Neither is helpful.