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I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to inter

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening. I'd be interested to read the figures you have on why support systems like these don't work in practice because all studies I've read suggest otherwise. Whether it be programmes that offer ex-convicts jobs and thus reduces their likelihood of re-offending; or support at an earlier age such as special schools for kids who are frequently expelled from the mainstream schools and how they've reduced the rates of young offenders. The key is really to give people alternative options rather than "protecting" them by removing options. Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into.

tempguy9999 7y ago
> Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. What are you saying, and what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? Please think very carefully before answering. Edit: have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide?
- laumars 7y ago
  > What are you saying Literally all I'm saying is suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. > what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? I don't really want to get into an off topic discussion about mental health which is why I didn't go into more detail in my previous post. However if you want more information about mental health then you can visit https://www.mind.org.uk/ https://www.mind.org.uk/ > Please think very carefully before answering. The tone of your posts are very antagonistic. I can't tell if this is intentional or not but it isn't pleasant to read. > have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide? Yes
  - DanBC 7y ago
    I agree with what you're saying. This point, however, is wrong. I don't think it being wrong changes your argument at all. > suicide is a [...] a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Lots of people who die by suicide do not have a history of mental illness and would not meet a definition of "mentally ill" at the time of their death. They die because of rapid onset despair rather than mental illness. They are "capacitous" - they know what they're doing and why they're doing it and they know the consequences and they've made the choice.
    - laumars 7y ago
      It's a misconception that mental illness means someone who isn't capacitous. Granted that can be the case at the extreme end of the spectrum but the term is a lot broader than that.
      - DanBC 7y ago
        Please read the researchers. Many people who die by suicide don't meet the criteria for mental illness at the time of their death and haven't had a history of mental ill health. https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408
        laumars 7y ago
        I wasn't disagreeing with the point that not everyone who commits suicide is mentally ill. I was disagreeing with your point that all sufferers of mental illness are in a state of psychosis. I also disagree with how you're interchanging "history of mental ill health" with "mental illness" because it's not always something one is born with. Lastly I don't think those twitter links are the best examples of your point because they are ostensibly saying "It's not a forgone conclusion; more research is needed." Which I absolutely do agree with. However, to get back to point, I do agree that not everyone who has suicidal thoughts, or who is suicidal, is mentally ill. I was being rather terse in my earlier post and in doing so had obviously mislead. So apologies for that.
Intermernet 7y ago
>Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Is it always a mental illness? I have to say that I hate the circumstances that lead people to suicide, and I don't think that I'd ever follow that course, but don't the reasons for suicide range from mental illness (eg depression) all the way to self determination (eg suffering from a terminal disease)?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
perl4ever 7y ago
"Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into." I don't understand the distinction you are making. People with mental illness make choices, are lead into things, etc. People who are expelled from school or incarcerated don't want to be in that situation but they are anyway. That seems like mental illness to me - counterproductive behavior that can't be willed to stop. The tragic fact I'm trying to communicate about attempts to help people is that the first step is to get someone who is vulnerable to trust authorities. And then that trust is necessarily betrayed, because the whole point is to try to help people without their consent. Not being able to trust is a primary cause or contributing factor to being unable to function properly in society.
- laumars 7y ago
  > I don't understand the distinction you are making. People with mental illness make choices, are lead into things, etc. > People who are expelled from school or incarcerated don't want to be in that situation but they are anyway. That seems like mental illness to me - counterproductive behavior that can't be willed to stop. Fair point. I probably shouldn't have made that distinction. > The tragic fact I'm trying to communicate about attempts to help people is that the first step is to get someone who is vulnerable to trust authorities. And then that trust is necessarily betrayed, because the whole point is to try to help people without their consent. Not being able to trust is a primary cause or contributing factor to being unable to function properly in society. In many of the more extreme cases that is true. However it doesn't always work out that way. Realistically this is a far to broad a topic to be generalising the way we have but it's still been a read regardless.

tempguy9999 7y ago

> Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. What are you saying, and what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? Please think very carefully before answering. Edit: have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide?

laumars 7y ago
> What are you saying Literally all I'm saying is suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. > what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? I don't really want to get into an off topic discussion about mental health which is why I didn't go into more detail in my previous post. However if you want more information about mental health then you can visit https://www.mind.org.uk/ https://www.mind.org.uk/ > Please think very carefully before answering. The tone of your posts are very antagonistic. I can't tell if this is intentional or not but it isn't pleasant to read. > have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide? Yes
- DanBC 7y ago
  I agree with what you're saying. This point, however, is wrong. I don't think it being wrong changes your argument at all. > suicide is a [...] a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Lots of people who die by suicide do not have a history of mental illness and would not meet a definition of "mentally ill" at the time of their death. They die because of rapid onset despair rather than mental illness. They are "capacitous" - they know what they're doing and why they're doing it and they know the consequences and they've made the choice.
  - laumars 7y ago
    It's a misconception that mental illness means someone who isn't capacitous. Granted that can be the case at the extreme end of the spectrum but the term is a lot broader than that.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      Please read the researchers. Many people who die by suicide don't meet the criteria for mental illness at the time of their death and haven't had a history of mental ill health. https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408 https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408
      - laumars 7y ago
        I wasn't disagreeing with the point that not everyone who commits suicide is mentally ill. I was disagreeing with your point that all sufferers of mental illness are in a state of psychosis. I also disagree with how you're interchanging "history of mental ill health" with "mental illness" because it's not always something one is born with. Lastly I don't think those twitter links are the best examples of your point because they are ostensibly saying "It's not a forgone conclusion; more research is needed." Which I absolutely do agree with. However, to get back to point, I do agree that not everyone who has suicidal thoughts, or who is suicidal, is mentally ill. I was being rather terse in my earlier post and in doing so had obviously mislead. So apologies for that.

Intermernet 7y ago

>Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Is it always a mental illness? I have to say that I hate the circumstances that lead people to suicide, and I don't think that I'd ever follow that course, but don't the reasons for suicide range from mental illness (eg depression) all the way to self determination (eg suffering from a terminal disease)?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

perl4ever 7y ago

"Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into." I don't understand the distinction you are making. People with mental illness make choices, are lead into things, etc. People who are expelled from school or incarcerated don't want to be in that situation but they are anyway. That seems like mental illness to me - counterproductive behavior that can't be willed to stop. The tragic fact I'm trying to communicate about attempts to help people is that the first step is to get someone who is vulnerable to trust authorities. And then that trust is necessarily betrayed, because the whole point is to try to help people without their consent. Not being able to trust is a primary cause or contributing factor to being unable to function properly in society.

laumars 7y ago
> I don't understand the distinction you are making. People with mental illness make choices, are lead into things, etc. > People who are expelled from school or incarcerated don't want to be in that situation but they are anyway. That seems like mental illness to me - counterproductive behavior that can't be willed to stop. Fair point. I probably shouldn't have made that distinction. > The tragic fact I'm trying to communicate about attempts to help people is that the first step is to get someone who is vulnerable to trust authorities. And then that trust is necessarily betrayed, because the whole point is to try to help people without their consent. Not being able to trust is a primary cause or contributing factor to being unable to function properly in society. In many of the more extreme cases that is true. However it doesn't always work out that way. Realistically this is a far to broad a topic to be generalising the way we have but it's still been a read regardless.