4 ms·

Also see http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101210/full/news.2010.665.html http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101210/full/news.2010.665.ht...

by rms 16y ago

jasonlotito 16y ago
> Most cosmologists believe that the Universe, and with it space and time, exploded into being some 13.7 billion years ago at the Big Bang, and that it has been expanding ever since. I read things like this, and I can't help but think it's just wrong (and that whatever science is saying is being distorted). Time did not start 13.7 billion years ago, and space didn't just pop into existence then. To suggest that suggests something came from nothing. So I can only assume that when science says space and time, they don't literally mean space and time, sort of like how science and laymen differ in their use of the word theory. In this case, I assume "space and time" being created 13.7 billion years ago means space and time that we can see, as we know it, and following our rules (whatever that is).
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- swombat 16y ago
  Welcome to cosmology and relativity. Yes, it's hard to wrap your mind around the concept of space and time being dimensions much like the x, y, z axis. Yes, it's hard to wrap your mind around the idea that this spacetime "thing" forms a 4-dimensional blob that is not infinite. Yes, it's almost impossible to visualise what it means that this spacetime blob that is our universe has a point where you cannot go 1 second earlier because there is nothing there. Yes, it's hard to even imagine the idee of nothing. Quantum physics, Relativity and Cosmology all have an annoying characteristic, which is that they're not intuitive. Quantum physics is unintuitive because things don't behave classically (i.e. like pebbles) at that scale, instead they behave like wave-particles. Relativity is unintuitive because space and time are tightly linked together and this is not an effect that we observe during the course of our daily lives. Cosmology is unintuitive because the timescales and concepts it deals with are so mind-boggling. So I can only assume that when science says space and time, they don't literally mean space and time, sort of like how science and laymen differ in their use of the word theory. Nope, they do mean space and time. And yes, they do mean that something came from nothing - or rather, if you study the topic, that something came from <X> where <X> is unknowable. Interestingly, this leaves a pretty good place for that "God" concept to hide.
  - jasonlotito 16y ago
    Yep, a pretty good summation of everything I've ever read on the topic. =) > And yes, they do mean that something came from nothing - or rather, if you study the topic, that something came from <X> where <X> is unknowable. See, that's what I have an issue with. Just because we can't record something or didn't record something doesn't mean it doesn't/didn't exist. We just haven't found a way to measure it. So something happens some time ago called the big bang, changing the layout of the universe. This doesn't mean time or stuff didn't exist before that. It simply means things changed. I know I'm stepping on toes and making light a topic people spend their lives pondering, but while concepts of time make for interesting theories, time isn't anything but a human concept that we've categorized. Thought games make time something you can fool with, but I've never read anything regarding showing time as anything that can be manipulated (granted, while I love reading this stuff, it's far outside my field). The concept of string theory is, at the very least, something which can be measured at some point. Time, however, is something that cannot be manipulated. Of course, as mentioned, this isn't my field so please, take these comments as merely that: and uninformed but interested outsider.
    - swombat 16y ago
      See, that's what I have an issue with. Just because we can't record something or didn't record something doesn't mean it doesn't/didn't exist. We just haven't found a way to measure it. So something happens some time ago called the big bang, changing the layout of the universe. This doesn't mean time or stuff didn't exist before that. It simply means things changed. No, that's what I'm saying. You don't understand this concept of spacetime, because it is not intuitive, and so you do not "get" the reality that the physics (which has ample amounts of supporting evidence and is not in doubt) predicts. Time can easily be manipulated, and it is manipulated all the time. Travel at the speed of light, and time ceases to pass for you. Travel really close to the speed of light and time will pass much more slowly for you. See the twin's paradox (which is only a paradox because it contradicts our intuition) for an easily understandable example of why. This effect (time dilation) is proven by mountains of evidence in the form of decay rates of particles, which change depending on their speed. It is not up for argument. Any subsequent theory must explain this observed effect. So, back to the initial question, your intuitive understanding of "time" is what is faulty. We have this perception of "time passing", but as far as we know that may just be an illusion in our heads. The only physical principle that has a clear direction in time is the increase of entropy. Time clearly exists, but the constant, measured passing of time is something that our brains made up to make sense of the world. There is no more necessity for time to exist than there is for for a balloon to exist. Time can be stretched, squeezed, and otherwise messed with. And it can even cease to exist. Yes, this is hard to wrap your head around. Welcome to physics.

Also see http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101210/full/news.2010.665.html http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101210/full/news.2010.665.ht...

by rms 16y ago

Also see http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101210/full/news.2010.665.html http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101210/full/news.2010.665.ht...

jasonlotito 16y ago

> Most cosmologists believe that the Universe, and with it space and time, exploded into being some 13.7 billion years ago at the Big Bang, and that it has been expanding ever since. I read things like this, and I can't help but think it's just wrong (and that whatever science is saying is being distorted). Time did not start 13.7 billion years ago, and space didn't just pop into existence then. To suggest that suggests something came from nothing. So I can only assume that when science says space and time, they don't literally mean space and time, sort of like how science and laymen differ in their use of the word theory. In this case, I assume "space and time" being created 13.7 billion years ago means space and time that we can see, as we know it, and following our rules (whatever that is).

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
swombat 16y ago
Welcome to cosmology and relativity. Yes, it's hard to wrap your mind around the concept of space and time being dimensions much like the x, y, z axis. Yes, it's hard to wrap your mind around the idea that this spacetime "thing" forms a 4-dimensional blob that is not infinite. Yes, it's almost impossible to visualise what it means that this spacetime blob that is our universe has a point where you cannot go 1 second earlier because there is nothing there. Yes, it's hard to even imagine the idee of nothing. Quantum physics, Relativity and Cosmology all have an annoying characteristic, which is that they're not intuitive. Quantum physics is unintuitive because things don't behave classically (i.e. like pebbles) at that scale, instead they behave like wave-particles. Relativity is unintuitive because space and time are tightly linked together and this is not an effect that we observe during the course of our daily lives. Cosmology is unintuitive because the timescales and concepts it deals with are so mind-boggling. So I can only assume that when science says space and time, they don't literally mean space and time, sort of like how science and laymen differ in their use of the word theory. Nope, they do mean space and time. And yes, they do mean that something came from nothing - or rather, if you study the topic, that something came from <X> where <X> is unknowable. Interestingly, this leaves a pretty good place for that "God" concept to hide.
- jasonlotito 16y ago
  Yep, a pretty good summation of everything I've ever read on the topic. =) > And yes, they do mean that something came from nothing - or rather, if you study the topic, that something came from <X> where <X> is unknowable. See, that's what I have an issue with. Just because we can't record something or didn't record something doesn't mean it doesn't/didn't exist. We just haven't found a way to measure it. So something happens some time ago called the big bang, changing the layout of the universe. This doesn't mean time or stuff didn't exist before that. It simply means things changed. I know I'm stepping on toes and making light a topic people spend their lives pondering, but while concepts of time make for interesting theories, time isn't anything but a human concept that we've categorized. Thought games make time something you can fool with, but I've never read anything regarding showing time as anything that can be manipulated (granted, while I love reading this stuff, it's far outside my field). The concept of string theory is, at the very least, something which can be measured at some point. Time, however, is something that cannot be manipulated. Of course, as mentioned, this isn't my field so please, take these comments as merely that: and uninformed but interested outsider.
  - swombat 16y ago
    See, that's what I have an issue with. Just because we can't record something or didn't record something doesn't mean it doesn't/didn't exist. We just haven't found a way to measure it. So something happens some time ago called the big bang, changing the layout of the universe. This doesn't mean time or stuff didn't exist before that. It simply means things changed. No, that's what I'm saying. You don't understand this concept of spacetime, because it is not intuitive, and so you do not "get" the reality that the physics (which has ample amounts of supporting evidence and is not in doubt) predicts. Time can easily be manipulated, and it is manipulated all the time. Travel at the speed of light, and time ceases to pass for you. Travel really close to the speed of light and time will pass much more slowly for you. See the twin's paradox (which is only a paradox because it contradicts our intuition) for an easily understandable example of why. This effect (time dilation) is proven by mountains of evidence in the form of decay rates of particles, which change depending on their speed. It is not up for argument. Any subsequent theory must explain this observed effect. So, back to the initial question, your intuitive understanding of "time" is what is faulty. We have this perception of "time passing", but as far as we know that may just be an illusion in our heads. The only physical principle that has a clear direction in time is the increase of entropy. Time clearly exists, but the constant, measured passing of time is something that our brains made up to make sense of the world. There is no more necessity for time to exist than there is for for a balloon to exist. Time can be stretched, squeezed, and otherwise messed with. And it can even cease to exist. Yes, this is hard to wrap your head around. Welcome to physics.