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Okay. So say you make an app that helps plumbers do their job well. If every plumber used it, plumber productivity would go up 50%, making life easier for all.

by cm2012 7y ago

Okay. So say you make an app that helps plumbers do their job well. If every plumber used it, plumber productivity would go up 50%, making life easier for all. It cost you years of your time and lots of money to make this great app, and you need a lot of plumbers to buy it to afford to continue working on it. There's a big plumber app on the market already, but yours is way better. How do you get plumbers to hear about your product? 1) The press? Uninterested. Plumber magazines or sites? Very low traffic - no way to scale. 2) Call or knock on doors of every plumber near you? If everyone did this, the spam would be unreal. Also inefficient and not scalable. 3) Referrals? You get some, but most plumbers aren't chomping at the bit to help their competitors. And because you started with so few, referrals are a snails pace and by no means exponential. 4) Organic postings and SEO? The big plumber app is way ahead of you. And 100 other worse apps clog up the listings. No one sees your posts. See the problem? Without ads, you can't grow many many categories of genuinely valuable products. Even if no one else is advertising, you can't really grow without them. This is barely a hypothetical by the way. I've worked with a dozen companies with similar situations.

cwkoss 7y ago
This is fallacious thinking. If you had an app that would increase plumber productivity by 50%, plumbers would be lining up to get into the Beta. Find any plumbing supplier or trade group, and if the effects are actually that good, they'll tell their members at no-charge because that knowledge would be a service to them. Plumbers would be cold-calling other plumbers trying to get a beta invite. All you need is a marginally competent sales person. Advertising is a waste money for quality products, only makes sense for inferior ones.
- taffer 7y ago
  > If you had an app that would increase plumber productivity by 50%, plumbers would be lining up to get into the Beta. How would plumbers know about the app without advertising? > Find any plumbing supplier [...] they'll tell their members at no-charge In other words: They would advertise it.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    > In other words: They would advertise it. It's quite clear we are talking about paid advertising, not the broader concept of people saying things.
- cm2012 7y ago
  This is just not true. Example: I was just hired to scale marketing for a particular app. This app currently has over 100 real reviews online, averaging 4.9 stars out of 5. Retention is nuts - 98% of people who ever started using the product (which has a monthly fee) are still using it. The company is three years old. Perfect to take off, right? But few industries are actually viral. We just doubled the number of new customers per month using FB ads in the first two months of scaling it out, and we'll scale much further over the next 3. Anyone who works in start-up growth will tell you the same things I am.
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    Why isn't the app growing organically? You can certainly pay for eyeballs, the question is whether FB ads are giving users with a retention level high enough to justify the advertising expense. Users from online ads tend to much lower quality than those that come from organic traffic, I would not expect your organic retention numbers to hold.
    - cm2012 7y ago
      I've said why its not growing organically many times. Most businesses have no viral coefficient, so organic growth is linear and slow. Some consumer focused tech busnesses are the exception, not the rules. And yes, all ad spend should be measured against true LTV.
anoncake 7y ago
> Uninterested. Plumber magazines or sites? Very low traffic - no way to scale. That means plumbers don't care about plumbing news, including your app. You have no right to disrespect their choice by spamming them anyway. In a world without ads, not subscribing to plumbing news would be a weird choice anyway. Refusing to learn about new ways to increase productivity – like your app – means giving your competition an advantage. > It cost you years of your time and lots of money to make this great app, and you need a lot of plumbers to buy it to afford to continue working on it. Society does not owe you customers.
- cm2012 7y ago
  Not subscribing to plumbing magaxines just means the signal to noise ratio in them is bad. For the value part: What if plumbers use Facebook (which they do) and when they see your FB ad, they buy your product. Wouldnt that indicate they do care about your app?
  - anoncake 7y ago
    If plumbers aren't satisfied with the signal to noise ratio of magazines they don't want to see ads either.
    - cm2012 7y ago
      They still use FB even though they see ads there. And then convert when they see the Plumbing ad.
      - anoncake 7y ago
        So? Maybe some ends justify the means. Selling an app isn't such an end. Is being able to sell your stuff all you care about? Because that's the impression I'm getting. I'd summarize our discussion like this (exaggerating for effect): > Ads damage democracy, make everyone unhappy, they're a huge drain on our economy and can be replaced by better methods of distributing information. > But I get to sell a plumbing app.

by cm2012 7y ago

cwkoss 7y ago

This is fallacious thinking. If you had an app that would increase plumber productivity by 50%, plumbers would be lining up to get into the Beta. Find any plumbing supplier or trade group, and if the effects are actually that good, they'll tell their members at no-charge because that knowledge would be a service to them. Plumbers would be cold-calling other plumbers trying to get a beta invite. All you need is a marginally competent sales person. Advertising is a waste money for quality products, only makes sense for inferior ones.

taffer 7y ago
> If you had an app that would increase plumber productivity by 50%, plumbers would be lining up to get into the Beta. How would plumbers know about the app without advertising? > Find any plumbing supplier [...] they'll tell their members at no-charge In other words: They would advertise it.
- anoncake 7y ago
  > In other words: They would advertise it. It's quite clear we are talking about paid advertising, not the broader concept of people saying things.
cm2012 7y ago
This is just not true. Example: I was just hired to scale marketing for a particular app. This app currently has over 100 real reviews online, averaging 4.9 stars out of 5. Retention is nuts - 98% of people who ever started using the product (which has a monthly fee) are still using it. The company is three years old. Perfect to take off, right? But few industries are actually viral. We just doubled the number of new customers per month using FB ads in the first two months of scaling it out, and we'll scale much further over the next 3. Anyone who works in start-up growth will tell you the same things I am.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  Why isn't the app growing organically? You can certainly pay for eyeballs, the question is whether FB ads are giving users with a retention level high enough to justify the advertising expense. Users from online ads tend to much lower quality than those that come from organic traffic, I would not expect your organic retention numbers to hold.
  - cm2012 7y ago
    I've said why its not growing organically many times. Most businesses have no viral coefficient, so organic growth is linear and slow. Some consumer focused tech busnesses are the exception, not the rules. And yes, all ad spend should be measured against true LTV.

anoncake 7y ago

> Uninterested. Plumber magazines or sites? Very low traffic - no way to scale. That means plumbers don't care about plumbing news, including your app. You have no right to disrespect their choice by spamming them anyway. In a world without ads, not subscribing to plumbing news would be a weird choice anyway. Refusing to learn about new ways to increase productivity – like your app – means giving your competition an advantage. > It cost you years of your time and lots of money to make this great app, and you need a lot of plumbers to buy it to afford to continue working on it. Society does not owe you customers.

cm2012 7y ago
Not subscribing to plumbing magaxines just means the signal to noise ratio in them is bad. For the value part: What if plumbers use Facebook (which they do) and when they see your FB ad, they buy your product. Wouldnt that indicate they do care about your app?
- anoncake 7y ago
  If plumbers aren't satisfied with the signal to noise ratio of magazines they don't want to see ads either.
  - cm2012 7y ago
    They still use FB even though they see ads there. And then convert when they see the Plumbing ad.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      So? Maybe some ends justify the means. Selling an app isn't such an end. Is being able to sell your stuff all you care about? Because that's the impression I'm getting. I'd summarize our discussion like this (exaggerating for effect): > Ads damage democracy, make everyone unhappy, they're a huge drain on our economy and can be replaced by better methods of distributing information. > But I get to sell a plumbing app.