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>> "the environmental impact of meat production is so enormous desastrous" Reference, please. In case you haven't seen what industrial plants agriculture look

>> "the environmental impact of meat production is so enormous desastrous" Reference, please. In case you haven't seen what industrial plants agriculture looks like nowadays: https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-morocca... The anti-meat propaganda is getting obnoxious. The most sustainable agriculture is one in which the soil is fertilised with manure and rotated livestock, because grazing animals keep the soil healthy and meat keeps us healthy, because we are omnivores. We might need to discourage CAFOs by cutting the corn subsidies and by raising their environmental taxes, which will raise the price of meat, but we also need to use less pesticides and artificial fertilisers, because we are heavily polluting the soil, the water supply and killing the bees, which should drive up the cost of fruits and vegetables too. And from ecological, to health and ethical considerations, most pro-vegan arguments (not all) are bullshit. The next time you're happy about not killing animals and being eco-friendly, see this: https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/songbirds-death-toll-millions-mediterranean-olive-harvesting-winter-a8916471.html https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/songbirds-death-to...

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
I'm just glad I got to read this comment before r/vegan showed up and downvoted it into oblivion. Such is the current state of discourse around this subject on HN. We need to eat less meat, we need to look after animals better and we need to do it in a much more eco-friendly and sustainable manner. We don't all need to go vegan. Going from one extreme to another is never the answer.
- ha99ja 7y ago
  If anything it is the exact opposite. Any mention of the negatives of eating meat will bring a hoard of anti-vegan pro-meat comments. Usually all pushing the same talking points. Most likely employed by the Center for Organizational Research and Education [1] which also astroturfs for pro-tobacco causes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Research_and_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Rese...
- lkbm 7y ago
  > Going from one extreme to another is never the answer. Why not?
  - inawarminister 7y ago
    Because humans are adaptable omnivores, who can survive if not thrive with just either plants or animals (cf. Carnivory diet). But most food are cultural specific, and it'd be a shame to lose most of it. To be honest, I'm one of those waiting for my promised future superalgae and Euglina's food pills, so...
    - Djvacto 7y ago
      You say it'd be a shame to lost most of the cultural foods that use meat, but you want food pills? I think meat substitutes like the Impossible Burger are more likely to preserve cultural heritage in food than a meal replacement, personally.
- sridca 7y ago
  > We need to eat less meat You might be interested in this submission (which got flagged so as to censor it out of the frontpage at that time): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20029519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20029519
bscphil 7y ago
Kind of funny you have zero citations of your own other than a single story (not a study) about how some plants are grown somewhere. >And from ecological, to health and ethical considerations, most pro-vegan arguments (not all) are bullshit. As an expert in one of these three fields, I can say with certainty that you're just making up these claims from whole cloth to fit your narrative. Edit: I want to edit this to make clear I'm not just making a claim to authority and saying everyone should believe me. This response was mainly out of frustration at outright nonsense like "meat keeps us healthy" that no health organization in the world is going to subscribe to. I hope people in general are aware enough of some of these issues to detect the problems in the post I replied to and look into some of these questions for themselves.
jdc 7y ago
Here's your reference: http://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode http://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode
valec 7y ago
your link doesn’t mention meat once. >ethical right. because growing billions of animals in inhuman conditions and slaughtering them is humane >health don’t feel like linking a source right now but higher red meat and sausage consumption are linked to colon cancer. this is a bit of a weaker point than the others >ecological wrong again. 7% of total emissions come just from gasses released by livestock. and about 60% of total ice free land is used to house the livestock and grow feed. [1] meat is just inefficient. 80% of arable land is used on meat and feeding that meat for only 20% of the worlds calories. [2] that just isn’t sustainable if the population keeps growing. eating meat is fine (arguably) but don’t try and justify it with bullshit. just say you like meat. [1] http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf [2] https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets
lm28469 7y ago
> In case you haven't seen what industrial plants agriculture looks like nowadays: It "looks" bad but do we care about looks more than pollution ? Look at any large scale animal farm, it looks much worse. Any solutions to feed 8b people will be far from perfect, but some solutions have less of an impact Reducing (not stopping) meat consumption is a very easy way to reduce your carbon footprint, and you can still get all the animal protein you need from dairy, eggs, &c. > The most sustainable agriculture is one in which the soil is fertilised with manure and rotated livestock, because grazing animals keep the soil healthy It's true, but the current meat industry is far from that. I'm all for sustainable farms and eating animals that have been reasonably grown and treated. The problem is that so many people eat meat every day, multiple time a day that the industry will never be able to provide sustainable meat. Look at the chicken industry, they grow them so fast that they die of organ failures and other growth related diseases and deformations. There is no soil fertilization coming from the millions of animals that have never been on a field. https://www.aspca.org/sites/default/files/chix_white_paper_nov2015_lores.pdf https://www.aspca.org/sites/default/files/chix_white_paper_n... > meat keeps us healthy, because we are omnivores. Omnivore doesn't especially mean meat eater, just animal derived products. People live without meat just fine, the abuse of meat and the consumption of low quality/processed meat has been linked to many health issues on the other hand. Nowadays I only eat meat when I go out and can spend good money on a quality steak, asian bbq or the like. Your body doesn't _need_ that daily ultra processed bacon, that $1.5/kg chicken or any of the fast food low quality burgers. The current western diets really are a metaphors for humanity; long term self destruction for short term pleasure & convenience. http://www.greeneatz.com/foods-carbon-footprint.html http://www.greeneatz.com/foods-carbon-footprint.html http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago

I'm just glad I got to read this comment before r/vegan showed up and downvoted it into oblivion. Such is the current state of discourse around this subject on HN. We need to eat less meat, we need to look after animals better and we need to do it in a much more eco-friendly and sustainable manner. We don't all need to go vegan. Going from one extreme to another is never the answer.

ha99ja 7y ago
If anything it is the exact opposite. Any mention of the negatives of eating meat will bring a hoard of anti-vegan pro-meat comments. Usually all pushing the same talking points. Most likely employed by the Center for Organizational Research and Education [1] which also astroturfs for pro-tobacco causes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Research_and_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Rese...
lkbm 7y ago
> Going from one extreme to another is never the answer. Why not?
- inawarminister 7y ago
  Because humans are adaptable omnivores, who can survive if not thrive with just either plants or animals (cf. Carnivory diet). But most food are cultural specific, and it'd be a shame to lose most of it. To be honest, I'm one of those waiting for my promised future superalgae and Euglina's food pills, so...
  - Djvacto 7y ago
    You say it'd be a shame to lost most of the cultural foods that use meat, but you want food pills? I think meat substitutes like the Impossible Burger are more likely to preserve cultural heritage in food than a meal replacement, personally.
sridca 7y ago
> We need to eat less meat You might be interested in this submission (which got flagged so as to censor it out of the frontpage at that time): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20029519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20029519

bscphil 7y ago

Kind of funny you have zero citations of your own other than a single story (not a study) about how some plants are grown somewhere. >And from ecological, to health and ethical considerations, most pro-vegan arguments (not all) are bullshit. As an expert in one of these three fields, I can say with certainty that you're just making up these claims from whole cloth to fit your narrative. Edit: I want to edit this to make clear I'm not just making a claim to authority and saying everyone should believe me. This response was mainly out of frustration at outright nonsense like "meat keeps us healthy" that no health organization in the world is going to subscribe to. I hope people in general are aware enough of some of these issues to detect the problems in the post I replied to and look into some of these questions for themselves.

jdc 7y ago

Here's your reference: http://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode http://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode

valec 7y ago

your link doesn’t mention meat once. >ethical right. because growing billions of animals in inhuman conditions and slaughtering them is humane >health don’t feel like linking a source right now but higher red meat and sausage consumption are linked to colon cancer. this is a bit of a weaker point than the others >ecological wrong again. 7% of total emissions come just from gasses released by livestock. and about 60% of total ice free land is used to house the livestock and grow feed. [1] meat is just inefficient. 80% of arable land is used on meat and feeding that meat for only 20% of the worlds calories. [2] that just isn’t sustainable if the population keeps growing. eating meat is fine (arguably) but don’t try and justify it with bullshit. just say you like meat. [1] http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf [2] https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets

lm28469 7y ago

> In case you haven't seen what industrial plants agriculture looks like nowadays: It "looks" bad but do we care about looks more than pollution ? Look at any large scale animal farm, it looks much worse. Any solutions to feed 8b people will be far from perfect, but some solutions have less of an impact Reducing (not stopping) meat consumption is a very easy way to reduce your carbon footprint, and you can still get all the animal protein you need from dairy, eggs, &c. > The most sustainable agriculture is one in which the soil is fertilised with manure and rotated livestock, because grazing animals keep the soil healthy It's true, but the current meat industry is far from that. I'm all for sustainable farms and eating animals that have been reasonably grown and treated. The problem is that so many people eat meat every day, multiple time a day that the industry will never be able to provide sustainable meat. Look at the chicken industry, they grow them so fast that they die of organ failures and other growth related diseases and deformations. There is no soil fertilization coming from the millions of animals that have never been on a field. https://www.aspca.org/sites/default/files/chix_white_paper_nov2015_lores.pdf https://www.aspca.org/sites/default/files/chix_white_paper_n... > meat keeps us healthy, because we are omnivores. Omnivore doesn't especially mean meat eater, just animal derived products. People live without meat just fine, the abuse of meat and the consumption of low quality/processed meat has been linked to many health issues on the other hand. Nowadays I only eat meat when I go out and can spend good money on a quality steak, asian bbq or the like. Your body doesn't _need_ that daily ultra processed bacon, that $1.5/kg chicken or any of the fast food low quality burgers. The current western diets really are a metaphors for humanity; long term self destruction for short term pleasure & convenience. http://www.greeneatz.com/foods-carbon-footprint.html http://www.greeneatz.com/foods-carbon-footprint.html http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet