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Even for companies who are supposedly privacy-forward, their defaults say otherwise. A brand-new iPhone has all these privacy settings that are off by default,

Even for companies who are supposedly privacy-forward, their defaults say otherwise. A brand-new iPhone has all these privacy settings that are off by default, and that are usually confusingly labeled and buried several settings screens deep. Nobody really turns them on outside of a very small bubble. Once companies have your trust, they can't help but break it if it'll earn them another few bucks. Yelp's a household name and doesn't seem like a bad actor, but that's proven false by this article. Furthermore, while they claim to have your best interests in mind, Apple (and Google) let companies perform this kind of shady behavior on their platforms that they completely control. If they let others get away with this, can you really trust that the "don't upload my photos to your servers" switch really does what it says it does? How do you know your phone isn't recording audio and taking photos to send off to a datacenter in the middle of the night? (To be fair, a lot of this data that's being sent out probably has something to do with background services designed to make the experience better. Weather Channel might be gathering location in the background for more up-to-the-minute forecasts. For things like cloud storage services, scraping your camera roll and uploading the photos is probably something you ask them to do.)

djrogers 7y ago
Care to be more specific? Sharing of location, contacts, photos, calendars, access to your camera, etc are all disabled for 3rd party apps by default, and must be enabled individually for each app. What are all these privacy settings you are referring to that are off by default?
- elagost 7y ago
  From what I understand (haven't set up an iPhone from default in a long time) but the 'limit ad tracking' is off by default, allowing apps to have background app refresh privileges is allowed for any app by default (you must manually disable for any offenders unless you want it off for everything), the privacy features in Safari are off by default, and Apple's own data-collection and location-collection is also on by default.
  - fhood 7y ago
    Settings -> Privacy -> Advertising. None of that seems buried to me. Took me under 15 seconds to locate the privacy menu. Also their advertising info/policy is accessible from that menu as well and is written in very clear, easy to understand language.
  - olliej 7y ago
    Apple has a giant privacy document goes into great detail as to how that information is anonymized and rendered untraceable[1]. Which privacy features are disabled in safari (or more specifically which features are implemented that are always on)? As for Limit Ad Tracking I'm honestly not sure what that actually does - given that according to this article apps are vigorously abusing their users irrespective of any user's settings. [1] https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Overview.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Over...
    - mirimir 7y ago
      What you say doesn't jive with TFA, which claims that the "information is [NOT] anonymized and rendered untraceable". What's the catch with Apple's privacy document? Is it just that they're ignoring issues about what apps do? I mean, they make such a big deal about vetting apps.
      - olliej 7y ago
        Apple is saying apple’s products don’t collect data where possible, it’s not a statement on how 3rd party apps mistreat users
    - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
      Limit Ad Tracking will zero out the advertising identifier, which is a vendor-specific ID used to track a device.
  - tinus_hn 7y ago
    Location services are not ‘location-collection’ and are off by default.
- mtgx 7y ago
  Is Apple disabling the automatic iCloud sync for the supposed "end-to-end encrypted" iMessages yet? If not, what is even the point of E2E encryption in iMessage if 99% of the iPhone users' conversations can be retrieved from their iCloud accounts? And that's not even mentioning the fact that iMessage has a design flaw that allows Apple to include an invisible third-party into people's "end-to-end encrypted conversations." Apple has known about it for like 3 years, but I haven't seen them try to fix it.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    Messages in the Cloud is and has always been disabled by default. So your 99% number is nonsense. And E2E encryption is to stop MITM attacks which are quite common if you are using untrusted networks e.g. open WiFi networks.
    - FabHK 7y ago
      > And E2E encryption is to stop MITM attacks which are quite common if you are using untrusted networks e.g. open WiFi networks. Those could also be avoided with encrypted (but not E2E encrypted) messages. E2E is supposed to be stronger than that.
      - giancarlostoro 7y ago
        Correct. The point of End to End encryption is that nobody else knows the contents of messages under any circumstances other than those in the conversation (usually 2 people).
lotsofpulp 7y ago
>Yelp's a household name and doesn't seem like a bad actor Everyone should assume their "free" app is being paid for via the use of the data they can glean from it. It's not like people don't know Yelp is a business and has to profit to continue to exist.
- panpanna 7y ago
  Even paid apps are sometimes into this. Because why settle for $0.99 when you can earn $0.99 + 0.02? Once a company reaches a certain size all decisions are made by bean counters and for them $1.01 > $0.99 every day of the week.
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    RadioShack was really ahead of their time, what with trying to collect your phone number and address every time you come in to buy a pack of AA batteries. Now with smartphones it's all automatic and much harder to say "no" to.
    - jstarfish 7y ago
      Were they really that demanding? IIRC, the last time I was in one, all they wanted was a ZIP code, which was weird enough at the time.
      - wlesieutre 7y ago
        Phone numbers I'm pretty sure about. It got joked about on Seinfeld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgfaYKoQxzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgfaYKoQxzQ Wikipedia claims that >Until 2004, RadioShack routinely asked for the name and address of purchasers so they could be added to mailing lists. Name and mailing address were requested for special orders (RadioShack Unlimited parts and accessories, Direc2U items not stocked locally), returns, check payments, RadioShack Answers Plus credit card applications, service plan purchases and carrier activations of cellular telephones. But that claim isn't sourced.
      - 7y ago
munk-a 7y ago
>Yelp's a household name and doesn't seem like a bad actor I admit, I lol'd. Yelp is, from my general community knowledge, one of the worst actors out there - holding companies hostage by refusing to remove fraudulent reviews and trying to capture users within it's own walled garden rather than forwarding them to primary business resources.
- dhimes 7y ago
  Agree. It's one of the groups out there that makes my stomach turn.
anthonybsd 7y ago
>Even for companies who are supposedly privacy-forward, their defaults say otherwise. A brand-new iPhone has all these privacy settings that are off by default, and that are usually confusingly labeled and buried several settings screens deep. Nobody really turns them on outside of a very small bubble. This statement is 100 percent unadulterated BS. Name 3 privacy settings in IPhone that are off by default?
- mthoms 7y ago
  "Limit Ad Tracking", "Location-Based Apple Ads", "Background App Refresh", "Significant Locations" (this one irks me the most) Don't get me wrong. I feel like Apple is at least trying to do the right thing with regards to privacy. They just aren't there yet (as evidenced by the linked article).
  - Accacin 7y ago
    Not that I'm defending Apple, but why is significant locations so bad? I turn it off because I don't need it, but my wife likes it being turned on and as far as I'm aware, the data is encrypted on the device and never leaves.
    - mthoms 7y ago
      At the risk of invoking (not from you specifically) the "if you haven't got anything to hide, you have nothing to worry about" argument: The data can be used against you by the legal system (both civil and criminal), various authorities (like customs agents) and anyone else who has access to your passcode (a jealous spouse for example). In the West, it's much less of an issue. But imagine you're a gay Chechen, a Chinese dissident, or a Burmese journalist and you find out the hard way your phone has been tracking your every move. Here's an interesting read from a forensics specialist who calls the data "a proverbial gold mine" and references insurance industry attorneys who use the info - https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2018/05/28/apple-iphone-forensics-significant-locations/ https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2018/05/28/apple-iphone-f... (Spoiler: To Apple's credit, the investigator is not able to extract any of the encrypted data without the passcode.) Personally, I've left it on since I agree it's a useful feature. And while I don't think there's any nefarious intent on Apple's part, I am really surprised that it's enabled by default and buried so deeply in the UI.

djrogers 7y ago

Care to be more specific? Sharing of location, contacts, photos, calendars, access to your camera, etc are all disabled for 3rd party apps by default, and must be enabled individually for each app. What are all these privacy settings you are referring to that are off by default?

elagost 7y ago
From what I understand (haven't set up an iPhone from default in a long time) but the 'limit ad tracking' is off by default, allowing apps to have background app refresh privileges is allowed for any app by default (you must manually disable for any offenders unless you want it off for everything), the privacy features in Safari are off by default, and Apple's own data-collection and location-collection is also on by default.
- fhood 7y ago
  Settings -> Privacy -> Advertising. None of that seems buried to me. Took me under 15 seconds to locate the privacy menu. Also their advertising info/policy is accessible from that menu as well and is written in very clear, easy to understand language.
- olliej 7y ago
  Apple has a giant privacy document goes into great detail as to how that information is anonymized and rendered untraceable[1]. Which privacy features are disabled in safari (or more specifically which features are implemented that are always on)? As for Limit Ad Tracking I'm honestly not sure what that actually does - given that according to this article apps are vigorously abusing their users irrespective of any user's settings. [1] https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Overview.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Over...
  - mirimir 7y ago
    What you say doesn't jive with TFA, which claims that the "information is [NOT] anonymized and rendered untraceable". What's the catch with Apple's privacy document? Is it just that they're ignoring issues about what apps do? I mean, they make such a big deal about vetting apps.
    - olliej 7y ago
      Apple is saying apple’s products don’t collect data where possible, it’s not a statement on how 3rd party apps mistreat users
  - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
    Limit Ad Tracking will zero out the advertising identifier, which is a vendor-specific ID used to track a device.
- tinus_hn 7y ago
  Location services are not ‘location-collection’ and are off by default.
mtgx 7y ago
Is Apple disabling the automatic iCloud sync for the supposed "end-to-end encrypted" iMessages yet? If not, what is even the point of E2E encryption in iMessage if 99% of the iPhone users' conversations can be retrieved from their iCloud accounts? And that's not even mentioning the fact that iMessage has a design flaw that allows Apple to include an invisible third-party into people's "end-to-end encrypted conversations." Apple has known about it for like 3 years, but I haven't seen them try to fix it.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Messages in the Cloud is and has always been disabled by default. So your 99% number is nonsense. And E2E encryption is to stop MITM attacks which are quite common if you are using untrusted networks e.g. open WiFi networks.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    > And E2E encryption is to stop MITM attacks which are quite common if you are using untrusted networks e.g. open WiFi networks. Those could also be avoided with encrypted (but not E2E encrypted) messages. E2E is supposed to be stronger than that.
    - giancarlostoro 7y ago
      Correct. The point of End to End encryption is that nobody else knows the contents of messages under any circumstances other than those in the conversation (usually 2 people).

lotsofpulp 7y ago

>Yelp's a household name and doesn't seem like a bad actor Everyone should assume their "free" app is being paid for via the use of the data they can glean from it. It's not like people don't know Yelp is a business and has to profit to continue to exist.

panpanna 7y ago
Even paid apps are sometimes into this. Because why settle for $0.99 when you can earn $0.99 + 0.02? Once a company reaches a certain size all decisions are made by bean counters and for them $1.01 > $0.99 every day of the week.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  RadioShack was really ahead of their time, what with trying to collect your phone number and address every time you come in to buy a pack of AA batteries. Now with smartphones it's all automatic and much harder to say "no" to.
  - jstarfish 7y ago
    Were they really that demanding? IIRC, the last time I was in one, all they wanted was a ZIP code, which was weird enough at the time.
    - wlesieutre 7y ago
      Phone numbers I'm pretty sure about. It got joked about on Seinfeld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgfaYKoQxzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgfaYKoQxzQ Wikipedia claims that >Until 2004, RadioShack routinely asked for the name and address of purchasers so they could be added to mailing lists. Name and mailing address were requested for special orders (RadioShack Unlimited parts and accessories, Direc2U items not stocked locally), returns, check payments, RadioShack Answers Plus credit card applications, service plan purchases and carrier activations of cellular telephones. But that claim isn't sourced.
    - 7y ago

munk-a 7y ago

>Yelp's a household name and doesn't seem like a bad actor I admit, I lol'd. Yelp is, from my general community knowledge, one of the worst actors out there - holding companies hostage by refusing to remove fraudulent reviews and trying to capture users within it's own walled garden rather than forwarding them to primary business resources.

dhimes 7y ago
Agree. It's one of the groups out there that makes my stomach turn.

anthonybsd 7y ago

>Even for companies who are supposedly privacy-forward, their defaults say otherwise. A brand-new iPhone has all these privacy settings that are off by default, and that are usually confusingly labeled and buried several settings screens deep. Nobody really turns them on outside of a very small bubble. This statement is 100 percent unadulterated BS. Name 3 privacy settings in IPhone that are off by default?

mthoms 7y ago
"Limit Ad Tracking", "Location-Based Apple Ads", "Background App Refresh", "Significant Locations" (this one irks me the most) Don't get me wrong. I feel like Apple is at least trying to do the right thing with regards to privacy. They just aren't there yet (as evidenced by the linked article).
- Accacin 7y ago
  Not that I'm defending Apple, but why is significant locations so bad? I turn it off because I don't need it, but my wife likes it being turned on and as far as I'm aware, the data is encrypted on the device and never leaves.
  - mthoms 7y ago
    At the risk of invoking (not from you specifically) the "if you haven't got anything to hide, you have nothing to worry about" argument: The data can be used against you by the legal system (both civil and criminal), various authorities (like customs agents) and anyone else who has access to your passcode (a jealous spouse for example). In the West, it's much less of an issue. But imagine you're a gay Chechen, a Chinese dissident, or a Burmese journalist and you find out the hard way your phone has been tracking your every move. Here's an interesting read from a forensics specialist who calls the data "a proverbial gold mine" and references insurance industry attorneys who use the info - https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2018/05/28/apple-iphone-forensics-significant-locations/ https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2018/05/28/apple-iphone-f... (Spoiler: To Apple's credit, the investigator is not able to extract any of the encrypted data without the passcode.) Personally, I've left it on since I agree it's a useful feature. And while I don't think there's any nefarious intent on Apple's part, I am really surprised that it's enabled by default and buried so deeply in the UI.