4 ms·

Because HTML was a document format, not an application container. Try positioning something exact in Latex.

mmphosis 7y ago
I am not going to start using Latex, but sadly this: <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>... still works just as well for layout than anything I've seen using CSS/HTML. Even worse, all I want to do is tab over from some text: <code>(SUB X Y)            </code>subtract<br>
- crispyambulance 7y ago
  That reminds me of this gem from back in the day: http://okcancel.com/comic/98.html http://okcancel.com/comic/98.html ... When people realized that you could, painfully, use CSS for layout and dump layout tables altogether.
- tootie 7y ago
  Serious question: Why can't I use tables and define cells sizes in terms of vh and vw?
  - httpsterio 7y ago
    Tables are totally fine if what you're visualising is data that belongs in a table. Tables for layouts are not semantically correct and breaks a lot of expected behaviour for people with assisting technology. Html shouldn't consider layouting, that's for css to do.
- sureaboutthis 7y ago
  You haven't looked hard enough and aren't aware of all the issues with using tables for layout. In addition, the attributes you show are now obsolete and non-conforming: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/dev/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features https://html.spec.whatwg.org/dev/obsolete.html#non-conformin...
crispyambulance 7y ago
Yeah, you're right, but for how many years did we fit the square-peg in the round-hole using html/css for "web-applications"? And anyway, how long did we have to use browsers before people realized it's not exactly a piece of A5 paper?
zrobotics 7y ago
It's hacky and not good practice, but LaTeX supports things like: \hspace*{0.75cm} which I've had reason to use on occasion.
Mikhail_Edoshin 7y ago
I often hear this argument but I haven't been able to grasp its meaning. Is SVG a document format or an application container? I'd say it's definitely not the latter. But it does allow for precise positioning, right? The same goes for PDF or XPS or any such thing, starting from PostScript. Besides, HTML does allow precise positioning, but nobody really needs it. What everybody needs is a high-level language that fits the domain: fluid 2D interactive layout. CSS is simply not a good attempt to solve it. It's not even bad per se, because a similar model works quite well with XSL-FO. But XSL-FO is always an intermediate step: you take a custom document format (some XML), transform it with XSLT into XSL-FO, and then process XSL-FO to produce a PDF. The HTML lacks this transform step and tries to bolt-on CSS model directly to what must be a custom XML format and this is why it's so awkward.
- crispyambulance 7y ago
  I remember in the late 90's when XML was hot stuff and there was of xsl and it's simpler cousin, xslt, and a capable mechanism for keeping everything "honest", the xml-schema. For whatever reasons, that never took off. It was promising, but it was mired in over-engineered complexity, the w3c docs looked like a nightmarish "design by committee" mess. I believe the intention was never to actually have to see XML let alone write it by hand. Along with the jetpacks of the year 2000, we were promised magical CASE tools that would handle the details. That fizzled out. Instead XML just became a means for encoding configuration that people typed in by hand, sometimes aided by a crappy intellisense-guided schema. We all grew to hate it. CSS was a great idea on the surface. Compact, not too complex looking: hook into elements by type, class or id, and style them as needed. But for many years it was a half-measure. Browsers behaved differently, and layout was counter-intuitive. And THAT is what I just can't understand. We had models for how layout on user interfaces should work for many years on desktop applications. CSS just didn't care, it was poor for newspaper-like layout and poor for web-app layout. CSS grid is such a refreshing step in the right direction, but why so long in coming?

I am not going to start using Latex, but sadly this: <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>... still works just as well for layout than anything I've seen using CSS/HTML. Even worse, all I want to do is tab over from some text: <code>(SUB X Y)            </code>subtract<br>

crispyambulance 7y ago
That reminds me of this gem from back in the day: http://okcancel.com/comic/98.html http://okcancel.com/comic/98.html ... When people realized that you could, painfully, use CSS for layout and dump layout tables altogether.
tootie 7y ago
Serious question: Why can't I use tables and define cells sizes in terms of vh and vw?
- httpsterio 7y ago
  Tables are totally fine if what you're visualising is data that belongs in a table. Tables for layouts are not semantically correct and breaks a lot of expected behaviour for people with assisting technology. Html shouldn't consider layouting, that's for css to do.
sureaboutthis 7y ago
You haven't looked hard enough and aren't aware of all the issues with using tables for layout. In addition, the attributes you show are now obsolete and non-conforming: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/dev/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features https://html.spec.whatwg.org/dev/obsolete.html#non-conformin...

crispyambulance 7y ago

Yeah, you're right, but for how many years did we fit the square-peg in the round-hole using html/css for "web-applications"? And anyway, how long did we have to use browsers before people realized it's not exactly a piece of A5 paper?

zrobotics 7y ago

It's hacky and not good practice, but LaTeX supports things like: \hspace*{0.75cm} which I've had reason to use on occasion.

Mikhail_Edoshin 7y ago

I often hear this argument but I haven't been able to grasp its meaning. Is SVG a document format or an application container? I'd say it's definitely not the latter. But it does allow for precise positioning, right? The same goes for PDF or XPS or any such thing, starting from PostScript. Besides, HTML does allow precise positioning, but nobody really needs it. What everybody needs is a high-level language that fits the domain: fluid 2D interactive layout. CSS is simply not a good attempt to solve it. It's not even bad per se, because a similar model works quite well with XSL-FO. But XSL-FO is always an intermediate step: you take a custom document format (some XML), transform it with XSLT into XSL-FO, and then process XSL-FO to produce a PDF. The HTML lacks this transform step and tries to bolt-on CSS model directly to what must be a custom XML format and this is why it's so awkward.

crispyambulance 7y ago
I remember in the late 90's when XML was hot stuff and there was of xsl and it's simpler cousin, xslt, and a capable mechanism for keeping everything "honest", the xml-schema. For whatever reasons, that never took off. It was promising, but it was mired in over-engineered complexity, the w3c docs looked like a nightmarish "design by committee" mess. I believe the intention was never to actually have to see XML let alone write it by hand. Along with the jetpacks of the year 2000, we were promised magical CASE tools that would handle the details. That fizzled out. Instead XML just became a means for encoding configuration that people typed in by hand, sometimes aided by a crappy intellisense-guided schema. We all grew to hate it. CSS was a great idea on the surface. Compact, not too complex looking: hook into elements by type, class or id, and style them as needed. But for many years it was a half-measure. Browsers behaved differently, and layout was counter-intuitive. And THAT is what I just can't understand. We had models for how layout on user interfaces should work for many years on desktop applications. CSS just didn't care, it was poor for newspaper-like layout and poor for web-app layout. CSS grid is such a refreshing step in the right direction, but why so long in coming?