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> Having completed both a masters in philosophy and an M.S. in computer science, I'll go as far as to say that I don't think college matters at all any more, in

by bko 7y ago

> Having completed both a masters in philosophy and an M.S. in computer science, I'll go as far as to say that I don't think college matters at all any more, in tech, and that's fine I always find interesting that the most vocal proponents of the "school doesn't matter" argument are often the most educated. Why did you get an undergrad and even go as far as to get a masters? Did you come to the realization after you finished your masters? Would you advise family members to forgo a college education since it doesn't matter? How confident are you of your convictions? It's easy to say school doesn't matter after you've achieved all the benefits from the signaling effect

ForRealsies 7y ago
Such advice is almost always "go to college, but a cheap one."
jshowa3 7y ago
School only matters because systematic bias against non-degree holders still exists and is widely prevalent among companies. However, people only like talking about Google and Amazon because they're the biggest ones and, generally, don't hold this bias.
notfromhere 7y ago
I think it's because a lot of these guys are self-starter learners, so they feel like they didn't learn much they couldn't have googled themselves. "Education doesnt matter" is a much different argument than "lots of jobs shouldn't require bachelors degrees"
arcturus17 7y ago
I get the impression that a lot of people saying that school doesn’t matter underestimate not only the signalling but also how much solid foundations make for easy learning later on. I’ve transitioned to programming in my late 20s. First I tried to learn by doing, without any formal education, and everything was grueling and I barely understood what I was doing. Then I got some formal education, and now I have much clearer mental models of how lots of things work, vastly improving my efficiency and quality. I’ve practiced a lot on my own too, but my side projects throughout these years would have never taught me certain topics which have actually come up in real life (most recent example I remember is graph traversal). It’s clear that some people have an outstanding creativity and drive and can explore even remote corners of the discipline on their own. For the rest of us who still love the science, college remains a great solution.
- kevinjb 7y ago
  Was reading through these comments; I'm currently planning to transition from an unrelated career in my late twenties to one in software development- wondering if I could email you some questions about your own experience perhaps? Cheers!
  - bko 7y ago
    Prob a little late but I made this transition in my early thirties. Feel free to email me. Email in my profile
ThrowawayR2 7y ago
> I always find interesting that the most vocal proponents of the "school doesn't matter" argument are often the most educated. It would be more accurate to say that those who put themselves in a career trajectory where education generally doesn't matter, unsurprisingly, find out having an education indeed does not matter. It's kind of excusable since such trajectories cover most of the software industry nowadays, but not anywhere near all of it. Those who want a career where their education is used to its fullest extent are going to have to work at it. Those jobs are harder to find and more demanding.
michaelt 7y ago
We can't accept people who never went to college saying college doesn't matter, because how would they know never having experienced it? And we can't accept people who have been to college saying college doesn't matter, because their revealed preferences are different and/or they're hypocrites.
- bko 7y ago
  I personally can't remember anyone that didn't go to college tell me that its not worth it. Either they say its not for them, they don't like sitting in a classroom, or they were faced extraordinary circumstances where they decided to pursue an opportunity. > And we can't accept people who have been to college saying college doesn't matter, because their revealed preferences are different and/or they're hypocrites I would accept the argument of a college educated individual if they actively discouraged their children from attending university. Telling strangers on the internet is easy, but with your own children you have skin in the game. To me that's more telling of their true beliefs
  - reitanqild 7y ago
    > I would accept the argument of a college educated individual if they actively discouraged their children from attending university. I was pushed into higher education. I'll try to accept or even encourage if my kids prefer vocational education. It's easy for me who live in Norway to say because - many ordinary jobs now pay extremely well if you put some effort into it. - moving from carpenter or electrician to engineer etc is way simpler than the other way around && real world experience seems to actually be appreciated if/when you later decide to take higher education. And yes, I have a bachelor degree and I while it was more interested than I expected I think the vast majority of what I know comes from colleagues as well as reading the Internet.
- j7ake 7y ago
  The only acceptable opinion would be from people who went to college and became successful, and then encouraging their kids to not go to college because it doesn't matter.
zepto 7y ago
School obviously provides signaling benefits, but there is generally an implication that it provides more than just exchanging cash for a certificate. People who have had a bunch of education are in a position to evaluate how much the education itself rather than the signaling benefitted them, whereas for people who have not, that is an unknown.

by bko 7y ago

ForRealsies 7y ago

Such advice is almost always "go to college, but a cheap one."

jshowa3 7y ago

School only matters because systematic bias against non-degree holders still exists and is widely prevalent among companies. However, people only like talking about Google and Amazon because they're the biggest ones and, generally, don't hold this bias.

notfromhere 7y ago

I think it's because a lot of these guys are self-starter learners, so they feel like they didn't learn much they couldn't have googled themselves. "Education doesnt matter" is a much different argument than "lots of jobs shouldn't require bachelors degrees"

arcturus17 7y ago

I get the impression that a lot of people saying that school doesn’t matter underestimate not only the signalling but also how much solid foundations make for easy learning later on. I’ve transitioned to programming in my late 20s. First I tried to learn by doing, without any formal education, and everything was grueling and I barely understood what I was doing. Then I got some formal education, and now I have much clearer mental models of how lots of things work, vastly improving my efficiency and quality. I’ve practiced a lot on my own too, but my side projects throughout these years would have never taught me certain topics which have actually come up in real life (most recent example I remember is graph traversal). It’s clear that some people have an outstanding creativity and drive and can explore even remote corners of the discipline on their own. For the rest of us who still love the science, college remains a great solution.

kevinjb 7y ago
Was reading through these comments; I'm currently planning to transition from an unrelated career in my late twenties to one in software development- wondering if I could email you some questions about your own experience perhaps? Cheers!
- bko 7y ago
  Prob a little late but I made this transition in my early thirties. Feel free to email me. Email in my profile

ThrowawayR2 7y ago

> I always find interesting that the most vocal proponents of the "school doesn't matter" argument are often the most educated. It would be more accurate to say that those who put themselves in a career trajectory where education generally doesn't matter, unsurprisingly, find out having an education indeed does not matter. It's kind of excusable since such trajectories cover most of the software industry nowadays, but not anywhere near all of it. Those who want a career where their education is used to its fullest extent are going to have to work at it. Those jobs are harder to find and more demanding.

michaelt 7y ago

We can't accept people who never went to college saying college doesn't matter, because how would they know never having experienced it? And we can't accept people who have been to college saying college doesn't matter, because their revealed preferences are different and/or they're hypocrites.

bko 7y ago
I personally can't remember anyone that didn't go to college tell me that its not worth it. Either they say its not for them, they don't like sitting in a classroom, or they were faced extraordinary circumstances where they decided to pursue an opportunity. > And we can't accept people who have been to college saying college doesn't matter, because their revealed preferences are different and/or they're hypocrites I would accept the argument of a college educated individual if they actively discouraged their children from attending university. Telling strangers on the internet is easy, but with your own children you have skin in the game. To me that's more telling of their true beliefs
- reitanqild 7y ago
  > I would accept the argument of a college educated individual if they actively discouraged their children from attending university. I was pushed into higher education. I'll try to accept or even encourage if my kids prefer vocational education. It's easy for me who live in Norway to say because - many ordinary jobs now pay extremely well if you put some effort into it. - moving from carpenter or electrician to engineer etc is way simpler than the other way around && real world experience seems to actually be appreciated if/when you later decide to take higher education. And yes, I have a bachelor degree and I while it was more interested than I expected I think the vast majority of what I know comes from colleagues as well as reading the Internet.
j7ake 7y ago
The only acceptable opinion would be from people who went to college and became successful, and then encouraging their kids to not go to college because it doesn't matter.

zepto 7y ago

School obviously provides signaling benefits, but there is generally an implication that it provides more than just exchanging cash for a certificate. People who have had a bunch of education are in a position to evaluate how much the education itself rather than the signaling benefitted them, whereas for people who have not, that is an unknown.