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WhatsApp is my primary messaging app, time to switch over to something else. It can go fuck itself sideways if FB starts adding ads. Some years ago there was t

WhatsApp is my primary messaging app, time to switch over to something else. It can go fuck itself sideways if FB starts adding ads. Some years ago there was the option of paying, which was removed around 2016. I understand that not everybody cares about this, but PLEASE give me the option not to see ads. There's enough bullshit advertising in my life already [] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/18/whatsapp-drops-subscription-fee-free https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/18/whatsapp-...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jotaf 7y ago
Not affiliated in any way, but you should give Signal a try. The hardest part with any IM service is going to be convincing your friends to join though. I wish someone came up with a good way to overcome this "critical mass" problem.
- mav3rick 7y ago
  It's never gonna happen. Mainstream users and media don't care enough.
  - hellcow 7y ago
    I've told the important people in my life that if they want to message me, they will need do it through Signal. It takes 2 minutes to set up, I show them how, and tell them that I won't reply to any SMS. Many switched, including the least technical people I know. A few did not. It's really not hard; you just have to draw a line in the sand. As a result of everyone I know using Signal, it fundamentally doesn't matter to me if the "mainstream" switches. We're already all on board.
    - eps 7y ago
      And then you end up in that situation when they didn't actually switch, but rather made you a favor and caved in to your self-centric demands and stubborness. Like with a tantrum-prone child. They still use WhatsApp between themselves, because that's what their dentist, car mechanic and a favourite sushi takeout use. They will also more eagerly reply to IMs if they are not sent through your preferred chat system. So in the end you technically made them do your thing, but the victory is hollow. Ask me how I know.
      - hellcow 7y ago
        Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I couldn't care less what they use to message their dentist. I care that they use Signal to message me.
        robjan 7y ago
        The problem is when one friend demands Signal, another WhatsApp, another Matrix, another Telegram, another Threema. These are all closed platforms and having loads of different apps installed which perform similar functions，to satisfy various people's dogmatic views is annoying.
        vurpo 7y ago
        Matrix is not a closed platform, and in fact the only one of the projects you mentioned that even makes an attempt to work together with other chat protocols and networks. It is explicitly open, not locked in to any single service provider, and making an explicit effort to not limit you to chat with only other Matrix users (despite how much Signal or WhatsApp works towards the opposite).
        mav3rick 7y ago
        You just made them install one more app. And you lost friends because they didn't install an app. What a dumb way to spite Facebook.
        hellcow 7y ago
    - Freak_NL 7y ago
      > […] and tell them that I won't reply to any SMS. How do you handle dumb/feature phone users?
    - pmlnr 7y ago
      Email. Matrix. XMPP. All of these have a very important aspect in common: you can choose your application you want to access the network with. I'm tired of needing to use The Official®©™ App, and Signal is no exception. It's also a single entity thus being a single point of failure. If you really want to make a difference please try to make people to migrate to something open. Quicksy[^1], DeltaChat[^2], something. But not another, essentially closed platform. [^1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.quicksy.client https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.quicksy.cli... [^2]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=chat.delta https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=chat.delta
      - hellcow 7y ago
        I agree. However email metadata isn't secure, so that's a nonstarter. I'm rooting for Matrix but thusfar Riot's UX to get an encrypted conversation going leaves a lot to be desired. No way are the non-technical people I know going to be able to do that. Signal "just works" with secure defaults, so that's the best we've got for now.
      - metildaa 7y ago
        Use Pyre.chat or signal-weechat. There are other options beyond Signal to chat with contacts on Signal.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > I've told the important people in my life that if they want to message me, they will need do it through Signal. It takes 2 minutes to set up, I show them how, and tell them that I won't reply to any SMS. I've done the opposite: there's no way I'm going to install a messaging app, and everyone I care to interact with knows they need to either use SMS or email to reach me. Everyone's been perfectly fine with that.
  - pmlnr 7y ago
    AOL. ICQ. Google Talk. Skype. People do migrate when the platform is FUBAR.
  - skohan 7y ago
    WhatsApp itself started as an obscure chat application. They nailed the simple SMS-like experience without high SMS fees, and that was enough for mainstream users. No reason people won't jump ship when WhatsApp loses that core experience.
    - mav3rick 7y ago
      It's still going to remain the same. Whatsapp is too big to fail, perhaps people in the US just don't comprehend how big of a user base Whatsapp has around the world.
      - skohan 7y ago
        I don't live in the US and fully understand WhatsApp's ubiquity. As others have commented, AOL instant messenger once seemed "too big to fail". There's not that much friction in changing to (or simply adopting a second) chat app - especially one which uses your phone number as an identifier.
    - dingaling 7y ago
      > WhatsApp itself started as an obscure chat application It actually started as a one-line status app, a bit like finger for the mobile era. Hence the name. It was only when they discovered that users were interactively chatting by changing their status lines in response to each other that WhatsApp pivoted to full chat. A good example of adapting to improvised user behaviour.
- thanatropism 7y ago
  Also not affiliated, just an user -- but Telegram has a lot of momentum going for it. It's possibly more of a substitute for Facebook than Whatsapp at this point, but in chat form, with a rich bot ecosystem and great UX.
  - burntoutcase 7y ago
    Telegram is spyware, just like WhatsApp.
    - toper-centage 7y ago
      No, it's not...
- zuron7 7y ago
  I'm really hoping that Chat over IMAP picks up. I use Delta Chat every now and then with some journalists who have it installed, and it just makes so much sense. We already have everyone's mail ID's anyway. Or at least I thought so. In countries like India, a large number of people have skipped email and gone to phone based services. So for Chat over IMAP to succeed over here it would need to have phone number based matching cos people do not use their mail ID's at all. Everything gets done over whatsapp.
  - robjan 7y ago
    Delta chat will never take off because every single mail provider throttles the number of emails going through its servers to prevent spam.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Goronmon 7y ago
  My wife and I tried Signal in the past and ran into situations where messages were lost or sometimes delayed by hours, some showing up well after other messages were, making conversations occasionally very frustrating. Messaging apps are definitely one of those situations where I expect things to work all of the time, not just most of the time.
  - lighthazard 7y ago
    I've had no issues with Telegram, and I think, although less secure than Signal, it's a great option to replace Whatsapp.
    - toper-centage 7y ago
      Feature wise telegram is definitely the best challenger right now. Signal is good but not as good. I wish it was better because of privacy. I like telegram too much now.
  - stringyham 7y ago
    I had exactly those same problems. I used it with a group of friends but one of them often didn't receive our replies.
  - ionised 7y ago
    Happens to me too.
- isoprophlex 7y ago
  Exactly, theres always the network effect that keeps you hostage. For me personally, this will be the moment to draw a line and just tell people to text me instead, or use another service...
jsonne 7y ago
You should know that Whatsapp advertising has been a thing for quite a while. It's an option you tick in the FB ads dashboard.
- jobigoud 7y ago
  Many people use WhatsApp but aren't on Facebook. I've never seen ads so far.
  - jsonne 7y ago
    Companies pay to initiate conversations with them. I assure you these ads exist and are purchased in the same place as any other FB ads using the same targeting FB has for any other ad placement.
brianacton 7y ago
I remember this pretty clearly. I always liked the $0.99 per year model because it was pure and simple. However, it was a three way decision with Mark for it, Jan somewhat on the fence, and me against. The primary argument being that payment was artificially hindering growth. Frankly, our growth was just fine at the time. History tells us how the decision landed.
- jscheel 7y ago
  Just for clarity, you liked the $0.99 model, but you were against it at the time because it would hinder growth, or you were against the idea of adding advertising once WhatsApp was acquired by Facebook?
- skohan 7y ago
  What was the margin on that $0.99 per year? I guess that was before you could send media?
- inapis 7y ago
  Was 0.99 per year even profitable?
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    Economies of scale would make it profitable considering WhatsApp doesn’t even have to host anything, just relay messages, and since it’s a private platform there are no moderation expenses either.
    - arthurcolle 7y ago
      I don't think that's its not hosting anything... http://www.erlang-factory.com/upload/presentations/558/efsf2012-whatsapp-scaling.pdf http://www.erlang-factory.com/upload/presentations/558/efsf2...
    - 0b0001 7y ago
      You can share files with a maximum size of 100MB. And if I'm not mistaken, those are hosted and available without expiry date.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rchaud 7y ago
First installed WhatsApp in 2010. It was $2.99 on the Blackberry App Store. I remember feeling miffed because the iOS/Android version was free. Seems ridiculous now, in light of everything that happened since.
La-ang 7y ago
Use Telegram :D

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jotaf 7y ago

Not affiliated in any way, but you should give Signal a try. The hardest part with any IM service is going to be convincing your friends to join though. I wish someone came up with a good way to overcome this "critical mass" problem.

mav3rick 7y ago
It's never gonna happen. Mainstream users and media don't care enough.
- hellcow 7y ago
  I've told the important people in my life that if they want to message me, they will need do it through Signal. It takes 2 minutes to set up, I show them how, and tell them that I won't reply to any SMS. Many switched, including the least technical people I know. A few did not. It's really not hard; you just have to draw a line in the sand. As a result of everyone I know using Signal, it fundamentally doesn't matter to me if the "mainstream" switches. We're already all on board.
  - eps 7y ago
    And then you end up in that situation when they didn't actually switch, but rather made you a favor and caved in to your self-centric demands and stubborness. Like with a tantrum-prone child. They still use WhatsApp between themselves, because that's what their dentist, car mechanic and a favourite sushi takeout use. They will also more eagerly reply to IMs if they are not sent through your preferred chat system. So in the end you technically made them do your thing, but the victory is hollow. Ask me how I know.
    - hellcow 7y ago
      Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I couldn't care less what they use to message their dentist. I care that they use Signal to message me.
      - robjan 7y ago
        The problem is when one friend demands Signal, another WhatsApp, another Matrix, another Telegram, another Threema. These are all closed platforms and having loads of different apps installed which perform similar functions，to satisfy various people's dogmatic views is annoying.
        vurpo 7y ago
        Matrix is not a closed platform, and in fact the only one of the projects you mentioned that even makes an attempt to work together with other chat protocols and networks. It is explicitly open, not locked in to any single service provider, and making an explicit effort to not limit you to chat with only other Matrix users (despite how much Signal or WhatsApp works towards the opposite).
      - mav3rick 7y ago
        You just made them install one more app. And you lost friends because they didn't install an app. What a dumb way to spite Facebook.
        hellcow 7y ago
  - Freak_NL 7y ago
    > […] and tell them that I won't reply to any SMS. How do you handle dumb/feature phone users?
  - pmlnr 7y ago
    Email. Matrix. XMPP. All of these have a very important aspect in common: you can choose your application you want to access the network with. I'm tired of needing to use The Official®©™ App, and Signal is no exception. It's also a single entity thus being a single point of failure. If you really want to make a difference please try to make people to migrate to something open. Quicksy[^1], DeltaChat[^2], something. But not another, essentially closed platform. [^1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.quicksy.client https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.quicksy.cli... [^2]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=chat.delta https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=chat.delta
    - hellcow 7y ago
      I agree. However email metadata isn't secure, so that's a nonstarter. I'm rooting for Matrix but thusfar Riot's UX to get an encrypted conversation going leaves a lot to be desired. No way are the non-technical people I know going to be able to do that. Signal "just works" with secure defaults, so that's the best we've got for now.
    - metildaa 7y ago
      Use Pyre.chat or signal-weechat. There are other options beyond Signal to chat with contacts on Signal.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > I've told the important people in my life that if they want to message me, they will need do it through Signal. It takes 2 minutes to set up, I show them how, and tell them that I won't reply to any SMS. I've done the opposite: there's no way I'm going to install a messaging app, and everyone I care to interact with knows they need to either use SMS or email to reach me. Everyone's been perfectly fine with that.
- pmlnr 7y ago
  AOL. ICQ. Google Talk. Skype. People do migrate when the platform is FUBAR.
- skohan 7y ago
  WhatsApp itself started as an obscure chat application. They nailed the simple SMS-like experience without high SMS fees, and that was enough for mainstream users. No reason people won't jump ship when WhatsApp loses that core experience.
  - mav3rick 7y ago
    It's still going to remain the same. Whatsapp is too big to fail, perhaps people in the US just don't comprehend how big of a user base Whatsapp has around the world.
    - skohan 7y ago
      I don't live in the US and fully understand WhatsApp's ubiquity. As others have commented, AOL instant messenger once seemed "too big to fail". There's not that much friction in changing to (or simply adopting a second) chat app - especially one which uses your phone number as an identifier.
  - dingaling 7y ago
    > WhatsApp itself started as an obscure chat application It actually started as a one-line status app, a bit like finger for the mobile era. Hence the name. It was only when they discovered that users were interactively chatting by changing their status lines in response to each other that WhatsApp pivoted to full chat. A good example of adapting to improvised user behaviour.
thanatropism 7y ago
Also not affiliated, just an user -- but Telegram has a lot of momentum going for it. It's possibly more of a substitute for Facebook than Whatsapp at this point, but in chat form, with a rich bot ecosystem and great UX.
- burntoutcase 7y ago
  Telegram is spyware, just like WhatsApp.
  - toper-centage 7y ago
    No, it's not...
zuron7 7y ago
I'm really hoping that Chat over IMAP picks up. I use Delta Chat every now and then with some journalists who have it installed, and it just makes so much sense. We already have everyone's mail ID's anyway. Or at least I thought so. In countries like India, a large number of people have skipped email and gone to phone based services. So for Chat over IMAP to succeed over here it would need to have phone number based matching cos people do not use their mail ID's at all. Everything gets done over whatsapp.
- robjan 7y ago
  Delta chat will never take off because every single mail provider throttles the number of emails going through its servers to prevent spam.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Goronmon 7y ago
My wife and I tried Signal in the past and ran into situations where messages were lost or sometimes delayed by hours, some showing up well after other messages were, making conversations occasionally very frustrating. Messaging apps are definitely one of those situations where I expect things to work all of the time, not just most of the time.
- lighthazard 7y ago
  I've had no issues with Telegram, and I think, although less secure than Signal, it's a great option to replace Whatsapp.
  - toper-centage 7y ago
    Feature wise telegram is definitely the best challenger right now. Signal is good but not as good. I wish it was better because of privacy. I like telegram too much now.
- stringyham 7y ago
  I had exactly those same problems. I used it with a group of friends but one of them often didn't receive our replies.
- ionised 7y ago
  Happens to me too.
isoprophlex 7y ago
Exactly, theres always the network effect that keeps you hostage. For me personally, this will be the moment to draw a line and just tell people to text me instead, or use another service...

jsonne 7y ago

You should know that Whatsapp advertising has been a thing for quite a while. It's an option you tick in the FB ads dashboard.

jobigoud 7y ago
Many people use WhatsApp but aren't on Facebook. I've never seen ads so far.
- jsonne 7y ago
  Companies pay to initiate conversations with them. I assure you these ads exist and are purchased in the same place as any other FB ads using the same targeting FB has for any other ad placement.

brianacton 7y ago

I remember this pretty clearly. I always liked the $0.99 per year model because it was pure and simple. However, it was a three way decision with Mark for it, Jan somewhat on the fence, and me against. The primary argument being that payment was artificially hindering growth. Frankly, our growth was just fine at the time. History tells us how the decision landed.

jscheel 7y ago
Just for clarity, you liked the $0.99 model, but you were against it at the time because it would hinder growth, or you were against the idea of adding advertising once WhatsApp was acquired by Facebook?
skohan 7y ago
What was the margin on that $0.99 per year? I guess that was before you could send media?
inapis 7y ago
Was 0.99 per year even profitable?
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  Economies of scale would make it profitable considering WhatsApp doesn’t even have to host anything, just relay messages, and since it’s a private platform there are no moderation expenses either.
  - arthurcolle 7y ago
    I don't think that's its not hosting anything... http://www.erlang-factory.com/upload/presentations/558/efsf2012-whatsapp-scaling.pdf http://www.erlang-factory.com/upload/presentations/558/efsf2...
  - 0b0001 7y ago
    You can share files with a maximum size of 100MB. And if I'm not mistaken, those are hosted and available without expiry date.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rchaud 7y ago

First installed WhatsApp in 2010. It was $2.99 on the Blackberry App Store. I remember feeling miffed because the iOS/Android version was free. Seems ridiculous now, in light of everything that happened since.

La-ang 7y ago

Use Telegram :D