7 ms·

The ABC's of Guiding the Child (1967) [pdf]

117 points by jyriand 7y ago

spicymaki 7y ago
Seems like good advice for adults as well.
lgats 7y ago
Mobile Friendly View: http://pdf.cab/centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/handout04.pdf http://pdf.cab/centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/han...
- jyriand 7y ago
  I only see a white page.
asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
There's some good advice here, but I don't know how evidence-based it all is. For example, I understand that there is some evidence that extrinsic rewards have problems when delivered in certain ways, but I don't think we've entirely overturned behaviorism. Rewards and punishments are a tool that the world uses on us, like it or not. It would be surprising if there were no place for that tool in child-rearing. Likewise, I question the advice to not involve oneself in children's fights. If one child is much bigger than the other, they can impose their will on the smaller child. Growing up, I saw friends who were on the losing side of this exchange, and it can be scarring. Still more of the advice is well meant but impractical. "Never do for the child what they can do for themselves." Suppose I have a flight to catch, and my son refuses to put on his own shoes. Am I to miss the flight then? My son can be stubborn. On one occasion I tried to follow this advice when he refused to walk himself home. We stood on the sidewalk for half an hour in twenty degree weather before I gave up and compelled him to walk home. I suspect, like much parenting advice, this stuff works for some kids and doesn't work for others. So much of parenting advice is survivorship bias. That a particular technique works for one child does not imply it works for all children. I can buy that these points are effective for most children, but ultimately you have to do what it takes to survive, and part of that is tailoring this stuff to your unique relationship with your own child.
- jolfdb 7y ago
  "Middlebrow dismissals" like this are discouraged on HN.
  - SanderSantema 7y ago
    I was interested what the exact meaning of a “Middlebrow dismissal” is (non-native speaker). But I could only find the following in the HN guidelines which doesn’t seem to mention middlebrow dismissals nor does it seem to be applicable to the toplevel comment: “Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something” What exactly is a “middlebrow dismissal” and why would the toplevel comment be that?
    - warent 7y ago
      I'm a native English speaker and can take a stab here. Lowbrow typically means unsophisticated (as in, like a neanderthal or ape) whereas highbrow means sophisticated. I'm assuming middlebrow means, well, something in the middle. All of that being said, the "middlebrow dismissal" observation/criticism makes zero sense to me here.
    - csa 7y ago
      I think this link answers it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224 This is pretty good, too: http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissals-so-tempting/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissal...
    - ACow_Adonis 7y ago
      I'm a native speaker and I've got no idea what he's saying. honestly I thought the guy made it up to try to sound cool... I also assumed given that it was a green account and a one line response that it would be downvoted and marked as spam.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    I don't think my post is "middle-brow". It's also not a dismissal. Can you explain what about it made you think so? I posted detailed, personal experiences that directly argue against particular items of advice in the PDF. This is DH4 in http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html.
munk-a 7y ago
I appreciate the era of instructions where you could call a document "The ABC's of X" without then feeling obligated to actually run through the alphabet in order and crowbar different sentiments in - speaking of which, backcronyms need to go away forever now.
- knolax 7y ago
  Was there a cut-off year after which all "ABCs of X" guides were obligated to actually run through the alphabet? When did such legislation pass?
UncleChis 7y ago
Natural consequences: What if the child doesn't care about consequence, or what if he/she likes the consequence? In the example of being late for school, the child could consider it as a reward, that he/she doesn't have to go to school anymore.
- pdonis 7y ago
  I think the assumption was that the child would arrive late at school and would suffer some unpleasant consequence as a result, such as being marked tardy where a certain number of tardies results in losing privileges of some kind, or in some kind of punishment like having to stay after class. That was probably a reasonable assumption in 1967; I'm not sure how reasonable it is now. :-)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- sesteel 7y ago
  Few parents are equipped to raise sociopaths and nearly all people respond to self-preservation. I would hope a child would be able to empathize if communicated with in way they could easily understand. 'Love and Logic' is a parenting technique where the use of natural consequences are used heavily; when kids understand you are their teacher, failure becomes an opportunity to learn. If you are simply there as an enforcer, you are viewed as a warden. They focus on not getting caught rather than gaining wisdom.
  - taneq 7y ago
    All kids are sociopaths to some degree, they don't really have fully functioning empathy until 6-8 years old at the earliest. Being "a teacher not an enforcer" sounds like one of those approaches that only works on kids who are already well behaved. Many kids won't give a crap what you're trying to teach them once they've established that there are no consequences for ignoring you.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
sdegutis 7y ago
On a related note, here's a mobile-formatted PDF called "How a Saint corrected children" https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEdBKMA2VZtz0BzOsZEOGc5X7HJaVP0w/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEdBKMA2VZtz0BzOsZEOGc5X7HJ... And similarly, the "Salesian Preventive System": https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LsfGlh0MiOMOLoYco9IAlxjqWgWa3N33/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LsfGlh0MiOMOLoYco9IAlxjqWgW... (Taken from http://salesianfamily.org/pedagogy/preventive-system http://salesianfamily.org/pedagogy/preventive-system and formatted via LaTeX.)
el_dev_hell 7y ago
This is basically a listicle from 1967. You could publish this on Buzzfeed by making the title "21 Ways to Raise AWESOME Children (Number 12 Will Shock You!)" and adding emojis.
- gowld 7y ago
  Yes listicles are lists with added flair, and this is a list.
projektfu 7y ago
This appears to be the related talk: http://centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/goalsofpar.html http://centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/goalsofpar....

117 points by jyriand 7y ago

Seems like good advice for adults as well.

Mobile Friendly View: http://pdf.cab/centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/handout04.pdf http://pdf.cab/centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/han...

jyriand 7y ago
I only see a white page.

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago

There's some good advice here, but I don't know how evidence-based it all is. For example, I understand that there is some evidence that extrinsic rewards have problems when delivered in certain ways, but I don't think we've entirely overturned behaviorism. Rewards and punishments are a tool that the world uses on us, like it or not. It would be surprising if there were no place for that tool in child-rearing. Likewise, I question the advice to not involve oneself in children's fights. If one child is much bigger than the other, they can impose their will on the smaller child. Growing up, I saw friends who were on the losing side of this exchange, and it can be scarring. Still more of the advice is well meant but impractical. "Never do for the child what they can do for themselves." Suppose I have a flight to catch, and my son refuses to put on his own shoes. Am I to miss the flight then? My son can be stubborn. On one occasion I tried to follow this advice when he refused to walk himself home. We stood on the sidewalk for half an hour in twenty degree weather before I gave up and compelled him to walk home. I suspect, like much parenting advice, this stuff works for some kids and doesn't work for others. So much of parenting advice is survivorship bias. That a particular technique works for one child does not imply it works for all children. I can buy that these points are effective for most children, but ultimately you have to do what it takes to survive, and part of that is tailoring this stuff to your unique relationship with your own child.

jolfdb 7y ago
"Middlebrow dismissals" like this are discouraged on HN.
- SanderSantema 7y ago
  I was interested what the exact meaning of a “Middlebrow dismissal” is (non-native speaker). But I could only find the following in the HN guidelines which doesn’t seem to mention middlebrow dismissals nor does it seem to be applicable to the toplevel comment: “Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something” What exactly is a “middlebrow dismissal” and why would the toplevel comment be that?
  - warent 7y ago
    I'm a native English speaker and can take a stab here. Lowbrow typically means unsophisticated (as in, like a neanderthal or ape) whereas highbrow means sophisticated. I'm assuming middlebrow means, well, something in the middle. All of that being said, the "middlebrow dismissal" observation/criticism makes zero sense to me here.
  - csa 7y ago
    I think this link answers it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224 This is pretty good, too: http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissals-so-tempting/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissal...
  - ACow_Adonis 7y ago
    I'm a native speaker and I've got no idea what he's saying. honestly I thought the guy made it up to try to sound cool... I also assumed given that it was a green account and a one line response that it would be downvoted and marked as spam.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  I don't think my post is "middle-brow". It's also not a dismissal. Can you explain what about it made you think so? I posted detailed, personal experiences that directly argue against particular items of advice in the PDF. This is DH4 in http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html.

munk-a 7y ago

I appreciate the era of instructions where you could call a document "The ABC's of X" without then feeling obligated to actually run through the alphabet in order and crowbar different sentiments in - speaking of which, backcronyms need to go away forever now.

knolax 7y ago
Was there a cut-off year after which all "ABCs of X" guides were obligated to actually run through the alphabet? When did such legislation pass?

UncleChis 7y ago

Natural consequences: What if the child doesn't care about consequence, or what if he/she likes the consequence? In the example of being late for school, the child could consider it as a reward, that he/she doesn't have to go to school anymore.

pdonis 7y ago
I think the assumption was that the child would arrive late at school and would suffer some unpleasant consequence as a result, such as being marked tardy where a certain number of tardies results in losing privileges of some kind, or in some kind of punishment like having to stay after class. That was probably a reasonable assumption in 1967; I'm not sure how reasonable it is now. :-)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
sesteel 7y ago
Few parents are equipped to raise sociopaths and nearly all people respond to self-preservation. I would hope a child would be able to empathize if communicated with in way they could easily understand. 'Love and Logic' is a parenting technique where the use of natural consequences are used heavily; when kids understand you are their teacher, failure becomes an opportunity to learn. If you are simply there as an enforcer, you are viewed as a warden. They focus on not getting caught rather than gaining wisdom.
- taneq 7y ago
  All kids are sociopaths to some degree, they don't really have fully functioning empathy until 6-8 years old at the earliest. Being "a teacher not an enforcer" sounds like one of those approaches that only works on kids who are already well behaved. Many kids won't give a crap what you're trying to teach them once they've established that there are no consequences for ignoring you.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago

sdegutis 7y ago

On a related note, here's a mobile-formatted PDF called "How a Saint corrected children" https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEdBKMA2VZtz0BzOsZEOGc5X7HJaVP0w/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEdBKMA2VZtz0BzOsZEOGc5X7HJ... And similarly, the "Salesian Preventive System": https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LsfGlh0MiOMOLoYco9IAlxjqWgWa3N33/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LsfGlh0MiOMOLoYco9IAlxjqWgW... (Taken from http://salesianfamily.org/pedagogy/preventive-system http://salesianfamily.org/pedagogy/preventive-system and formatted via LaTeX.)

el_dev_hell 7y ago

This is basically a listicle from 1967. You could publish this on Buzzfeed by making the title "21 Ways to Raise AWESOME Children (Number 12 Will Shock You!)" and adding emojis.

gowld 7y ago
Yes listicles are lists with added flair, and this is a list.

projektfu 7y ago

This appears to be the related talk: http://centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/goalsofpar.html http://centervideo.forest.usf.edu/qpi/goalsofpar/goalsofpar....