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The trade war makes no sense to me. My conservative family members are all for free markets without government intervention. Now they’re all angry about China.

The trade war makes no sense to me. My conservative family members are all for free markets without government intervention. Now they’re all angry about China. When American jobs went to China, they would have had a heart attack if an American official tried to dictate what these companies could or could not do. They went overseas so shareholders could increase profits. Meanwhile, China propped up so many of its industries, which was well within their rights to develop their country. So how are the Chinese bad guys here? If anything, corporate America was greedy, and now corporate America feels threatened that China is growing too fast. You threw American workers under the bus and sent the jobs to China, but you were hoping China would stay poor. For all of its huge faults and despite the human rights abuses, the Chinese government can actually get things done as opposed to here with our annual traditions of government shutdown threats and now extended periods of actual shutdowns. Look at the progress China made since 2000. What was America doing? Greed caused a recession, we’ve fought endless wars, where one of the chief architects is now head of NSA instead of being in prison. Sure we have more technology, but is the average American better off if you look at wages? We’re more divided than ever. The jobs numbers look great in 50 years? Great job! None of those people will be ever able to retire and don’t have $500 for an emergency.

pbourke 7y ago
Do you think that corporate America somehow wants this trade war? I think it would have preferred to stay in the TPP trade deal and operate under a predictable regulatory environment.
- tracer4201 7y ago
  I don’t know. I do know my conservative friends and conservative personalities all seem to support the trade war.
  - kiran-rao 7y ago
    I believe a large part is identity politics. A symptome is that a voter will agree with the policy of their preferred candidates, rather than choosing a candidate based on their preferred policy. I'm implying this for both sides of the aisle.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      At the least republicans accuse democrats of being in identity politics and then practice extreme versions of it themselves. I like the op above us who sees the contradictions. 'Some (rich) Americans' don't like the choices that free american companies made to move their factories to China; they liked them before because it was more profits, now the Chinese are becoming too powerful.
      - humanrebar 7y ago
        There are more libertarian types who have been consistently for unrestricted trade. And there are patriotic types who see the role of government as booster-in-chief, taking the side of its companies whatever the implications are. There are definitely people who use identity more than ideology to make decisions, and there are hypocrites, but it's not strictly useful to complain about them as if they are the only people in the discussion.
mmsimanga 7y ago
Not from the USA but I am intrigued you classify the relatives for the trade war as conservatives. Are they conservative in everything else or is this a position they hold. Do all conservatives hold the same position. I am genuinely interested because I have always regarded myself as conservative even though I work in technology. I was one of the last to get a cellphone because when they entered the market they were too expensive so was airtime to make any calls. I tend to want to improve processes using current stack before jumping on a new technology stack. I am just not into the latest fashion, I literally wear the same two pairs of jeans to work every day (interchangeably). I am intrigued because in the US it seems being conservative has a "negative" connotation if I may say so. I have always seen myself as being more cautious and not jumping on every fad.
- echlebek 7y ago
  Hi, Canadian here. From what I've been able to gather, American conservatism is more of a tribe than an ideology, that holds many values under a big tent. Some of these values are at odds with each other. I don't see much conservatism in republicans at all. They are not conserving the environment, they are not fiscally conservative, their politics has been starkly reactionary. At this point, I would say the label has lost all meaning. Luckily, Americans can still vote for the Democratic party, a staunchly conservative party by all accounts.
  - marmaduke 7y ago
    Conservative in the US doesn’t mean tea party trump voters. You got it wrong. Go worry about Canada.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      He got it right in reality. Republicans say they are conservatives, their conference is cpac has conservative in the name, they use that word incessantly. but it just means self-interested power that cloaks itself misleadingly in that conservative is good.
  - sesteel 7y ago
kortilla 7y ago
Being pro free market usually means you want level playing fields for companies. Now when you introduce governments that alter that playing field by refusing to enforce IP or by having asymmetric tariffs, that government is interfering with the free market. Given that, most people I’ve talked to that are in agreement with the trade war view it as a necessary evil to force China to level the playing field. They don’t want a long term trade war.
- tracer4201 7y ago
  Level playing fields is a gross simplification. Companies in the US have various advantages of the simple fact that they’re in a developed nation. Compare us to China 15 years ago. They wouldn’t get to where they are or stay on their current trajectory had their focus being in being “fair” to the West. To be clear, American interests were grounded in asymmetric hegemony over Chinese market, not for some evil world domination goals but to fuel American profits. It didn’t turn out that way so now people cry about fairness.
  - CathayRe 7y ago
    China has well passed the time for its Developing Countries Status and everything it promised to WTO. And that is everything that was "unfair".
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    > Companies in the US have various advantages of the simple fact that they’re in a developed nation. The US isn't magically a developed nation. It is fortunate, sure. And it has absolutely made mistakes and ill-advised compromises for the sake of growth. But universities, factories, literacy, functioning judicial systems, and infrastructure don't fall out of the sky. It's not arbitrary that developed nations are developed.
    - jsgyx 7y ago
      Try and post this in a thread where people are discussing Africa and prepare for a ban :P
gnomewascool 7y ago
If you believe that "intellectual property" is a "thing" (as many people do) then you may consider China's behaviour in this area (obtaining trade secrets illicitly, or forcing companies to reveal them as a condition for doing business in China, or breaking copyright law) to be theft and more than enough grounds for sanctions. Even if you don't believe in "intellectual property", then you may still believe that a selective (not universal) and one-sided breaking of the relevant international and national IP laws, in favour of one country, is harmful. In addition to that, there have been allegations (I'm not sure how true they are), that supposedly private Chinese companies have been supported by the Chinese government in ways that break WTO rules.
- tracer4201 7y ago
  No one is forced to reveal secrets. Play ball with their rules or don’t business in China. Our own government forced tech companies to do certain things. Why can’t China set its own rules? Sure I believe in IP. I also think other countries will do as they please when they know they will get away with it. Nation states behave in self interest and can have their own interpretations of what are black and white laws to you or me, especially so when they’re in a position of power. Or they can completely disregard international agreements. Case in point - the Iran deal.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    >Play ball with their rules or don’t business in China. If you don't manufacture in China, you can't compete with companies that do. As a result, every company is forced to sell out their future 20 years from now so that they don't go under today. Whether you think it's a good idea or not, government intervention is often necessary to coordinate industry-wide strategic things like "don't put poison in milk" and "don't take the sweet but deadly embrace of technology transfer."
  - majos 7y ago
    You simultaneously believe in IP and are confused that American companies are upset by IP theft by Chinese companies? Why would they not be? It's not like they agreed to well-defined contracts trading away their IP. It's reasonable to be upset if you believe the other party in a contract has unilaterally broken it.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
One thing (might be many others) :Free markets are not free is the state subsidizes certain industries. They can dump the product for long enough to bankrupt others...
dev_dull 7y ago
> For all of its huge faults and despite the human rights abuses, the Chinese government can actually get things done as opposed to here with our annual traditions of government shutdown threats and now extended periods of actual shutdowns. A surveillance state can get a lot of things done. We could make our government work a lot differently here as well if you find their system better than ours.

pbourke 7y ago

Do you think that corporate America somehow wants this trade war? I think it would have preferred to stay in the TPP trade deal and operate under a predictable regulatory environment.

tracer4201 7y ago
I don’t know. I do know my conservative friends and conservative personalities all seem to support the trade war.
- kiran-rao 7y ago
  I believe a large part is identity politics. A symptome is that a voter will agree with the policy of their preferred candidates, rather than choosing a candidate based on their preferred policy. I'm implying this for both sides of the aisle.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    At the least republicans accuse democrats of being in identity politics and then practice extreme versions of it themselves. I like the op above us who sees the contradictions. 'Some (rich) Americans' don't like the choices that free american companies made to move their factories to China; they liked them before because it was more profits, now the Chinese are becoming too powerful.
    - humanrebar 7y ago
      There are more libertarian types who have been consistently for unrestricted trade. And there are patriotic types who see the role of government as booster-in-chief, taking the side of its companies whatever the implications are. There are definitely people who use identity more than ideology to make decisions, and there are hypocrites, but it's not strictly useful to complain about them as if they are the only people in the discussion.

mmsimanga 7y ago

Not from the USA but I am intrigued you classify the relatives for the trade war as conservatives. Are they conservative in everything else or is this a position they hold. Do all conservatives hold the same position. I am genuinely interested because I have always regarded myself as conservative even though I work in technology. I was one of the last to get a cellphone because when they entered the market they were too expensive so was airtime to make any calls. I tend to want to improve processes using current stack before jumping on a new technology stack. I am just not into the latest fashion, I literally wear the same two pairs of jeans to work every day (interchangeably). I am intrigued because in the US it seems being conservative has a "negative" connotation if I may say so. I have always seen myself as being more cautious and not jumping on every fad.

echlebek 7y ago
Hi, Canadian here. From what I've been able to gather, American conservatism is more of a tribe than an ideology, that holds many values under a big tent. Some of these values are at odds with each other. I don't see much conservatism in republicans at all. They are not conserving the environment, they are not fiscally conservative, their politics has been starkly reactionary. At this point, I would say the label has lost all meaning. Luckily, Americans can still vote for the Democratic party, a staunchly conservative party by all accounts.
- marmaduke 7y ago
  Conservative in the US doesn’t mean tea party trump voters. You got it wrong. Go worry about Canada.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    He got it right in reality. Republicans say they are conservatives, their conference is cpac has conservative in the name, they use that word incessantly. but it just means self-interested power that cloaks itself misleadingly in that conservative is good.
- sesteel 7y ago

kortilla 7y ago

Being pro free market usually means you want level playing fields for companies. Now when you introduce governments that alter that playing field by refusing to enforce IP or by having asymmetric tariffs, that government is interfering with the free market. Given that, most people I’ve talked to that are in agreement with the trade war view it as a necessary evil to force China to level the playing field. They don’t want a long term trade war.

tracer4201 7y ago
Level playing fields is a gross simplification. Companies in the US have various advantages of the simple fact that they’re in a developed nation. Compare us to China 15 years ago. They wouldn’t get to where they are or stay on their current trajectory had their focus being in being “fair” to the West. To be clear, American interests were grounded in asymmetric hegemony over Chinese market, not for some evil world domination goals but to fuel American profits. It didn’t turn out that way so now people cry about fairness.
- CathayRe 7y ago
  China has well passed the time for its Developing Countries Status and everything it promised to WTO. And that is everything that was "unfair".
- humanrebar 7y ago
  > Companies in the US have various advantages of the simple fact that they’re in a developed nation. The US isn't magically a developed nation. It is fortunate, sure. And it has absolutely made mistakes and ill-advised compromises for the sake of growth. But universities, factories, literacy, functioning judicial systems, and infrastructure don't fall out of the sky. It's not arbitrary that developed nations are developed.
  - jsgyx 7y ago
    Try and post this in a thread where people are discussing Africa and prepare for a ban :P

gnomewascool 7y ago

If you believe that "intellectual property" is a "thing" (as many people do) then you may consider China's behaviour in this area (obtaining trade secrets illicitly, or forcing companies to reveal them as a condition for doing business in China, or breaking copyright law) to be theft and more than enough grounds for sanctions. Even if you don't believe in "intellectual property", then you may still believe that a selective (not universal) and one-sided breaking of the relevant international and national IP laws, in favour of one country, is harmful. In addition to that, there have been allegations (I'm not sure how true they are), that supposedly private Chinese companies have been supported by the Chinese government in ways that break WTO rules.

tracer4201 7y ago
No one is forced to reveal secrets. Play ball with their rules or don’t business in China. Our own government forced tech companies to do certain things. Why can’t China set its own rules? Sure I believe in IP. I also think other countries will do as they please when they know they will get away with it. Nation states behave in self interest and can have their own interpretations of what are black and white laws to you or me, especially so when they’re in a position of power. Or they can completely disregard international agreements. Case in point - the Iran deal.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  >Play ball with their rules or don’t business in China. If you don't manufacture in China, you can't compete with companies that do. As a result, every company is forced to sell out their future 20 years from now so that they don't go under today. Whether you think it's a good idea or not, government intervention is often necessary to coordinate industry-wide strategic things like "don't put poison in milk" and "don't take the sweet but deadly embrace of technology transfer."
- majos 7y ago
  You simultaneously believe in IP and are confused that American companies are upset by IP theft by Chinese companies? Why would they not be? It's not like they agreed to well-defined contracts trading away their IP. It's reasonable to be upset if you believe the other party in a contract has unilaterally broken it.

onetimemanytime 7y ago

One thing (might be many others) :Free markets are not free is the state subsidizes certain industries. They can dump the product for long enough to bankrupt others...

dev_dull 7y ago

> For all of its huge faults and despite the human rights abuses, the Chinese government can actually get things done as opposed to here with our annual traditions of government shutdown threats and now extended periods of actual shutdowns. A surveillance state can get a lot of things done. We could make our government work a lot differently here as well if you find their system better than ours.