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I really don't like that they used Joe Beef's name for this kind of restaurant (exclusive, expensive, and pointlessly excessive). Joe Beef was the definition o

I really don't like that they used Joe Beef's name for this kind of restaurant (exclusive, expensive, and pointlessly excessive). Joe Beef was the definition of a working-class hero: http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/mckiernan_charles_11E.html http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/mckiernan_charles_11E.html

rfwhyte 7y ago
I hate how all these so called "unpretentious" places always seem to charge $40+ for an entree. I don't know what world they live in, but in the one I inhabit, $40 for a piece of fish is plenty pretentious no matter how quirky your decor may be.
- ncphillips 7y ago
  That would be $40 CAD == $30 USD if it makes a difference for you. Most entrees are in the 22-35 range. Anything I've had in the $40 range has been incredible.
- esoterica 7y ago
  What do you think the word pretentious means?
- parasubvert 7y ago
  I inhabit the same world as you, and fish tends to be pretty expensive depending on where it was caught, how fresh it is, and how it is prepared. More expensive than beef! Good fish places in Canada that are small restaurants / non-chains like Joso’s or Chiado in Toronto have fish entrees that range from CAD $40-$55 or even more when looking at market price fish flown in from Europe. A steakhouse like Joe’s (Chicago) or Morton’s charges USD $50 for Dover sole. Price doesn’t imply pretention, it’s expensive to run a small restaurant, and they seem to be doing fine charging what they are. There’s also Red Lobster or Joey’s Only which seem to do okay selling edible fish and seafood for a more affordable price with near zero pretention.
  - logicallee 7y ago
    Yeah you're not really paying for the fish you are paying for the chorus who have to sing to it in the back of restaurant. As a patron you probably barely hear them over the well-known band in the front but those Sopranos, Mezzos, Altos, Tenors, Baritones and Basses actually cost a lot more than the bass does. Honestly, $40 is a steal considering what goes into it. - EDIT: I'm not deleting this, it's great, and on topic for what we're talking about.
- ska 7y ago
  I think it is a category error to equate entree price and pretension. There are plenty of preparations and sources that make it at best breaking even on a $40 fish course (restaurants, especially higher end ones, often don't make anything much on entrees). So you may not feel it is good value for money, but others may well disagree - without being pretentious. After all, fish isn't in any sense fungible. Even with the same fish, "Joe brought this in fresh today" and "I got it from Sysco" can be very different experiences. There is after all long distance between places that employ careful sourcing and skilled labor intensive techniques, to those with 5 figure wine lists that rely on wall st. and biglaw types to survive. You can't discern them on $/plate alone. Now $400 entrees ... you probably have something there.
  - deadmetheny 7y ago
    This is bang-on. Fish that's worth a shit tends to be on the expensive side, and profit margins on entrees are not nearly as good as most people who aren't in industry think they are.
  - hackermailman 7y ago
    I don't mind paying $40 for fresh fish, cooked in fresh herbs, it's overall flavor meticulously arranged by a professional chef which is something I would unlikely be able to replicate myself. I also don't mind paying up to $150 for a tasting menu from a leading chef like Clare Smythe, just to get ideas myself on flavor pairings. I only eat out once a month or so unless it's appetizers at some bar. I've never seen a $400 scam entree of inflated caviar and truffle pricing but I'm sure they exist like Nello's famous 'daily special' they push on unsuspecting marks without telling you the price.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
perfmode 7y ago
Joe Beef sounds like an incredible person. to use his name in this way is, to me, slanderous. > But how could such an establishment be run at a profit, when salaries had to be paid to some ten employees and board and lodging supplied free to many clients? Joe Beef seems in fact to have taken advantage of his lengthy service in the British army. Thus, as early as 1868 his status as an army veteran had exempted him from the heavy expense of obtaining an innkeeper’s licence. In addition, he managed his business by insisting on the observance of regulations. A client who failed to conform was quickly called to order; if he repeated the offence he was thrown out. But such incidents were rare, for as La Patrie noted, “all the guests in this strange hostelry have the same respect for the owner as the English soldier has for his sergeant.”
parasubvert 7y ago
I’ve been to Joe Beef and Liverpool house a few times. It’s not all that expensive or exclusive. Less than a typical steakhouse, getting a seat can be done with a few days notice if you’re flexible on time. They are bistros with some interesting dishes and good wine. They feel very unpretentious. And yes they have some dishes that are excessive, but not all of them . Not everyone wants a Foie Gras Double Down.
- spraak 7y ago
  > getting a seat can be done with a few days notice if you’re flexible on time You're still rationalizing away the point - that's still quite exclusive in the name of a working class hero. Would a working class person have a few flexible days to schedule eating out? They'd just go to a diner where as soon as they decide they're hungry, they walk in and sit down immediately.
  - parasubvert 7y ago
    Rationalizing? I refute it. My point is that these were two working class guys that built a successful business, and didn’t set out to create the world’s greatest restaurant with insatiable demand. The name was selected as a tribute to a good man, must they now change the name once they’ve become a global culinary icon? I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that successful restaurants can’t be tributes to working class heroes. Its also very presumptuous to project your own biases into what and where a working class person will eat or what’s important to them.
  - cr1895 7y ago
    That strikes me as quite patronizing. Why couldn't a working class person plan for a dinner out?
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    there are plenty of working class people who enjoy a good dining experience. they might not be able to afford it often, but they are certainly capable of planning where to eat dinner more than five minutes in advance.

rfwhyte 7y ago

I hate how all these so called "unpretentious" places always seem to charge $40+ for an entree. I don't know what world they live in, but in the one I inhabit, $40 for a piece of fish is plenty pretentious no matter how quirky your decor may be.

ncphillips 7y ago
That would be $40 CAD == $30 USD if it makes a difference for you. Most entrees are in the 22-35 range. Anything I've had in the $40 range has been incredible.
esoterica 7y ago
What do you think the word pretentious means?
parasubvert 7y ago
I inhabit the same world as you, and fish tends to be pretty expensive depending on where it was caught, how fresh it is, and how it is prepared. More expensive than beef! Good fish places in Canada that are small restaurants / non-chains like Joso’s or Chiado in Toronto have fish entrees that range from CAD $40-$55 or even more when looking at market price fish flown in from Europe. A steakhouse like Joe’s (Chicago) or Morton’s charges USD $50 for Dover sole. Price doesn’t imply pretention, it’s expensive to run a small restaurant, and they seem to be doing fine charging what they are. There’s also Red Lobster or Joey’s Only which seem to do okay selling edible fish and seafood for a more affordable price with near zero pretention.
- logicallee 7y ago
  Yeah you're not really paying for the fish you are paying for the chorus who have to sing to it in the back of restaurant. As a patron you probably barely hear them over the well-known band in the front but those Sopranos, Mezzos, Altos, Tenors, Baritones and Basses actually cost a lot more than the bass does. Honestly, $40 is a steal considering what goes into it. - EDIT: I'm not deleting this, it's great, and on topic for what we're talking about.
ska 7y ago
I think it is a category error to equate entree price and pretension. There are plenty of preparations and sources that make it at best breaking even on a $40 fish course (restaurants, especially higher end ones, often don't make anything much on entrees). So you may not feel it is good value for money, but others may well disagree - without being pretentious. After all, fish isn't in any sense fungible. Even with the same fish, "Joe brought this in fresh today" and "I got it from Sysco" can be very different experiences. There is after all long distance between places that employ careful sourcing and skilled labor intensive techniques, to those with 5 figure wine lists that rely on wall st. and biglaw types to survive. You can't discern them on $/plate alone. Now $400 entrees ... you probably have something there.
- deadmetheny 7y ago
  This is bang-on. Fish that's worth a shit tends to be on the expensive side, and profit margins on entrees are not nearly as good as most people who aren't in industry think they are.
- hackermailman 7y ago
  I don't mind paying $40 for fresh fish, cooked in fresh herbs, it's overall flavor meticulously arranged by a professional chef which is something I would unlikely be able to replicate myself. I also don't mind paying up to $150 for a tasting menu from a leading chef like Clare Smythe, just to get ideas myself on flavor pairings. I only eat out once a month or so unless it's appetizers at some bar. I've never seen a $400 scam entree of inflated caviar and truffle pricing but I'm sure they exist like Nello's famous 'daily special' they push on unsuspecting marks without telling you the price.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

perfmode 7y ago

Joe Beef sounds like an incredible person. to use his name in this way is, to me, slanderous. > But how could such an establishment be run at a profit, when salaries had to be paid to some ten employees and board and lodging supplied free to many clients? Joe Beef seems in fact to have taken advantage of his lengthy service in the British army. Thus, as early as 1868 his status as an army veteran had exempted him from the heavy expense of obtaining an innkeeper’s licence. In addition, he managed his business by insisting on the observance of regulations. A client who failed to conform was quickly called to order; if he repeated the offence he was thrown out. But such incidents were rare, for as La Patrie noted, “all the guests in this strange hostelry have the same respect for the owner as the English soldier has for his sergeant.”

parasubvert 7y ago

I’ve been to Joe Beef and Liverpool house a few times. It’s not all that expensive or exclusive. Less than a typical steakhouse, getting a seat can be done with a few days notice if you’re flexible on time. They are bistros with some interesting dishes and good wine. They feel very unpretentious. And yes they have some dishes that are excessive, but not all of them . Not everyone wants a Foie Gras Double Down.

spraak 7y ago
> getting a seat can be done with a few days notice if you’re flexible on time You're still rationalizing away the point - that's still quite exclusive in the name of a working class hero. Would a working class person have a few flexible days to schedule eating out? They'd just go to a diner where as soon as they decide they're hungry, they walk in and sit down immediately.
- parasubvert 7y ago
  Rationalizing? I refute it. My point is that these were two working class guys that built a successful business, and didn’t set out to create the world’s greatest restaurant with insatiable demand. The name was selected as a tribute to a good man, must they now change the name once they’ve become a global culinary icon? I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that successful restaurants can’t be tributes to working class heroes. Its also very presumptuous to project your own biases into what and where a working class person will eat or what’s important to them.
- cr1895 7y ago
  That strikes me as quite patronizing. Why couldn't a working class person plan for a dinner out?
- leetcrew 7y ago
  there are plenty of working class people who enjoy a good dining experience. they might not be able to afford it often, but they are certainly capable of planning where to eat dinner more than five minutes in advance.