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>They just want “free” things provides by government and lower taxes. As a young American myself, I would gladly pay (significantly) more in taxes in exchange

>They just want “free” things provides by government and lower taxes. As a young American myself, I would gladly pay (significantly) more in taxes in exchange for a much stronger social safety net. Broadly, this is for two reasons, one altruistic and one selfish: 1) There are tons of people in dire economic straits through no direct fault of their own; those whose industries are dying, those whom our healthcare system has failed, etc. I can't ignore this in good conscience if there's something we as a society can do to improve the situation. 2) While I'm well-off as a tech worker right now, and demand is high, there's no guarantee that will continue to be the case indefinitely. It would give me much peace of mind if the lower bound of how far I could ultimately fall was a lot higher than it is now.

rayiner 7y ago
A “well off tech worker” is already paying taxes similar to what they would in Europe. An individual making $300k pays a marginal rate of almost 45% in California, about the same as in Germany. But in Germany, the marginal rate of 42% kicks in for income above about $70,000. In California, that rate is 30% for a single person. Their equivalent of FICA taxes is 17.5% for the employee share, versus 7.5% here. (And both their medical and pension social insurance taxes are only paid on the first $70-80k of income, versus here where SS is paid on up to $130k and Medicare is paid on all income.) It’s worth playing around with a German tax calculator: https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calculator_germany.php https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calcu.... A single person making 30,000 euros in Germany pays about 25% of total income in taxes. In California it’s about 15%. Someone making 300,000 euros pays about 45%. In California, it’s almost exactly the same, 44%. That’s not counting the 20% VAT, which will disproportionately hit the person making 30,000. (That also doesn’t count all the middle class deductions which don’t exist in Germany, like the mortgage interest deduction.) I’m perfectly willing to pay German taxes to have a German style welfare state. (It would be even better if we had Germans running those new public services.) The question is whether middle class Americans are willing to do so.
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  Give it to them for a decade and then try taking it away and you'll see how much even Republicans will begin enjoying the benefits.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  I'm not in Germany, but Norway. A land of high taxes, on par with Germany but with high consumer prices. You obviously aren't calculating in things like not going broke due to a medical expense. I never have to worry about having maintenance medicine, for example. I'm not paying any more in taxes than I was in the US, once I included my health insurance. I honestly pay less overall because of the way US health insurance is set up. I broke my arm in the autumn and had paid leave. I was working my 2nd season as a temp worker in a chocolate factory. (I'm in norway because my spouse is Norwegian. I'm lower middle class if anything). There also isn't as much difference between poor and rich, though the difference definitely exists. Children's healthcare is free. Maternity leave exists and it is fairly robust. People get paid days off if they are sick, and parents get more so they can properly take care of their children (I'm pretty sure this is similar to Germany). You don't notice the VAT most of the time. Here it is 0% for books/newspapers, 15% on food, and 25% on everything else. The VAT is included in the price, which is much preferable to having 8.5% sales tax on things as a surprise at the register (or having to do careful math and know the local tax rate). I also don't need to pay tips so a waitress can survive. I can actually have life stability in ways I could not have in the US.
  - hundt 7y ago
    I don't think his point is that the German middle class suffers as a result of their model. I think he is just saying that Germans accept a high (compared the U.S.) level of direct taxes on the middle class to enable their way of life, and that we would need to accept the same deal here in the U.S. if we want the same outcome.

rayiner 7y ago

A “well off tech worker” is already paying taxes similar to what they would in Europe. An individual making $300k pays a marginal rate of almost 45% in California, about the same as in Germany. But in Germany, the marginal rate of 42% kicks in for income above about $70,000. In California, that rate is 30% for a single person. Their equivalent of FICA taxes is 17.5% for the employee share, versus 7.5% here. (And both their medical and pension social insurance taxes are only paid on the first $70-80k of income, versus here where SS is paid on up to $130k and Medicare is paid on all income.) It’s worth playing around with a German tax calculator: https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calculator_germany.php https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calcu.... A single person making 30,000 euros in Germany pays about 25% of total income in taxes. In California it’s about 15%. Someone making 300,000 euros pays about 45%. In California, it’s almost exactly the same, 44%. That’s not counting the 20% VAT, which will disproportionately hit the person making 30,000. (That also doesn’t count all the middle class deductions which don’t exist in Germany, like the mortgage interest deduction.) I’m perfectly willing to pay German taxes to have a German style welfare state. (It would be even better if we had Germans running those new public services.) The question is whether middle class Americans are willing to do so.

gremlinsinc 7y ago
Give it to them for a decade and then try taking it away and you'll see how much even Republicans will begin enjoying the benefits.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
I'm not in Germany, but Norway. A land of high taxes, on par with Germany but with high consumer prices. You obviously aren't calculating in things like not going broke due to a medical expense. I never have to worry about having maintenance medicine, for example. I'm not paying any more in taxes than I was in the US, once I included my health insurance. I honestly pay less overall because of the way US health insurance is set up. I broke my arm in the autumn and had paid leave. I was working my 2nd season as a temp worker in a chocolate factory. (I'm in norway because my spouse is Norwegian. I'm lower middle class if anything). There also isn't as much difference between poor and rich, though the difference definitely exists. Children's healthcare is free. Maternity leave exists and it is fairly robust. People get paid days off if they are sick, and parents get more so they can properly take care of their children (I'm pretty sure this is similar to Germany). You don't notice the VAT most of the time. Here it is 0% for books/newspapers, 15% on food, and 25% on everything else. The VAT is included in the price, which is much preferable to having 8.5% sales tax on things as a surprise at the register (or having to do careful math and know the local tax rate). I also don't need to pay tips so a waitress can survive. I can actually have life stability in ways I could not have in the US.
- hundt 7y ago
  I don't think his point is that the German middle class suffers as a result of their model. I think he is just saying that Germans accept a high (compared the U.S.) level of direct taxes on the middle class to enable their way of life, and that we would need to accept the same deal here in the U.S. if we want the same outcome.