5 ms·

I kind of doubt most Americans, especially young Americans can even distinguish between the two... This coming from a young American, who tries to understand m

I kind of doubt most Americans, especially young Americans can even distinguish between the two... This coming from a young American, who tries to understand my cohorts logic/reasoning. Most have very little understanding of history or even current events. They just want “free” things provides by government and lower taxes.

mort96 7y ago
What makes you think most young people just want "free" things by the government and lower taxes? Granted, I don't talk much with regular young americans, but the vast majority of opinions I hear on the topic seem to talk more about systemic injustices and the huge issues with seeking exponential growth above all else. I can't recall seeing anyone ever arguing for both lower taxes and free healthcare/education/whatever at the same time.
- rayiner 7y ago
  We already have very low taxes compared to countries that offer free healthcare, education, etc. Young Democrats are under the misperception that we can pay for all those things without raising taxes on them, just on corporations and people making over $10 million per year. They don’t realize what those other countries do to pay for those services. Our former au pair is a young German lady who previously worked an entry level office job in Germany. When she tore her ACL, she was able to pay the hospital and EMT bills out of her own income. Her taxes and mandatory social insurance payments were also 40% of her paycheck. And although college in Germany is almost free, she wasn’t eligible to enroll based on her scores on the abitur exam. She definitely would’ve gone to college in the US, but only about 30% of German high school graduates enroll in college, versus almost 70% here. I personally like the German system a lot. I think college is overrated and that it’s great that in Germany you can graduate high school at 16, do an apprenticeship, and get a real job with room for growth. But young liberals in the US seem to be under the view that you can have your cake and eat it too. They don’t realize that Germany, etc., doesn’t match their vision for the US, where the government pays for people with average grades to get social science degrees and put off getting a real job until 25, while taxing entry level workers next to nothing.
  - pintxo 7y ago
    Actually Germany is currently (2018) at about 55% of people joining college [1]. So things are changing. [1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/72005/umfrage/entwicklung-der-studienanfaengerquote/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/72005/umfrage...
  - gremlinsinc 7y ago
    How is paying 8k more for taxes but 10k less on insurance or education not a win? Yeah you have higher taxes cry me a river your out of pocket spending is less. In Roosevelt's day anyone earning 1 million + was taxed at 95%. Basically meaning all their money went back to the state. It encouraged them to spend it on business and grow their business holdings. The big wins come in having a single-payer for health who can say : No we will not pay $35 to hospitals for a single ibuprofen, stop gouging prices. Or we will not pay more than $x for insulin - don't like it? We'll end your patent term for non-generics early so prices CAN go down. It's that collective bargaining combined WITH the end of insurance salaries. More money is free'd up for hospitals, and if we can make the system tech-streamlined, we could save even more. The more we automate the entire stack the better for the entire billing/management of funds to drs/hospitals.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      > How is paying 8k more for taxes but 10k less on insurance or education not a win? Yeah you have higher taxes cry me a river your out of pocket spending is less. It may well be a win! I think it is. But that’s not the pitch liberal Democrats are making. They’re saying “you can have European style benefits, but you won’t pay European style taxes. The top 1% and corporations will pay for all of it.” That’s not realistic. > In Roosevelt's day anyone earning 1 million + was taxed at 95%. Basically meaning all their money went back to the state. It encouraged them to spend it on business and grow their business holdings. Roosevelt’s economic ideas were bad and the US and Europe have spent decades unwinding similar policies. That’s the lesson liberal Democrats refuse to take away from Europe. The Reagan Revolution happened in Europe as well as the US. Industries were deregulated, businesses were privatized, and taxes were lowered. Europe continues to move further to the right. And Germany, France, and Sweden don’t “soak the rich” as the US tries to do: https://images.app.goo.gl/xbVh5c9cXHqfMESx6 https://images.app.goo.gl/xbVh5c9cXHqfMESx6. They have high but relatively flat taxes on individuals, and moderate taxes on corporations and capital gains. An in-depth comparison of Germany and US taxation is here: https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2017/382 https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2.... Overall US taxes are about 10% of GDP lower than Germany ($2 trillion). A small part of that difference comes from lower taxes on capital (23% versus 27% overall). The real difference is significantly lower taxes on labor, and massively lower taxes on consumption. If we moved to a German tax system, it wouldn’t “soak the rich.” Capitalists would see their taxes go up a little. Labor and consumers would see their taxes go up massively.
ryukafalz 7y ago
>They just want “free” things provides by government and lower taxes. As a young American myself, I would gladly pay (significantly) more in taxes in exchange for a much stronger social safety net. Broadly, this is for two reasons, one altruistic and one selfish: 1) There are tons of people in dire economic straits through no direct fault of their own; those whose industries are dying, those whom our healthcare system has failed, etc. I can't ignore this in good conscience if there's something we as a society can do to improve the situation. 2) While I'm well-off as a tech worker right now, and demand is high, there's no guarantee that will continue to be the case indefinitely. It would give me much peace of mind if the lower bound of how far I could ultimately fall was a lot higher than it is now.
- rayiner 7y ago
  A “well off tech worker” is already paying taxes similar to what they would in Europe. An individual making $300k pays a marginal rate of almost 45% in California, about the same as in Germany. But in Germany, the marginal rate of 42% kicks in for income above about $70,000. In California, that rate is 30% for a single person. Their equivalent of FICA taxes is 17.5% for the employee share, versus 7.5% here. (And both their medical and pension social insurance taxes are only paid on the first $70-80k of income, versus here where SS is paid on up to $130k and Medicare is paid on all income.) It’s worth playing around with a German tax calculator: https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calculator_germany.php https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calcu.... A single person making 30,000 euros in Germany pays about 25% of total income in taxes. In California it’s about 15%. Someone making 300,000 euros pays about 45%. In California, it’s almost exactly the same, 44%. That’s not counting the 20% VAT, which will disproportionately hit the person making 30,000. (That also doesn’t count all the middle class deductions which don’t exist in Germany, like the mortgage interest deduction.) I’m perfectly willing to pay German taxes to have a German style welfare state. (It would be even better if we had Germans running those new public services.) The question is whether middle class Americans are willing to do so.
  - gremlinsinc 7y ago
    Give it to them for a decade and then try taking it away and you'll see how much even Republicans will begin enjoying the benefits.
gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
The socialist/capitalist divide isn't so interesting. What's interesting is whether we're ever capable of reeling in failed programs and axing entrenched bureaucracy. There is no major party seriously advocating for the reduction of the size, scope and spending of government. So most discourse is centered about unproductive hair-splitting of how much we should increase budgets for department X or program Y.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  > There is no major party seriously advocating for the reduction of the size, scope and spending of government That is a familiar Republican talking point. "Starve the beast"; "Drain the swamp", et cetera.
  - gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
    > talking point Hasn't really happened - government and spending has grown healthily under Trump.

mort96 7y ago

What makes you think most young people just want "free" things by the government and lower taxes? Granted, I don't talk much with regular young americans, but the vast majority of opinions I hear on the topic seem to talk more about systemic injustices and the huge issues with seeking exponential growth above all else. I can't recall seeing anyone ever arguing for both lower taxes and free healthcare/education/whatever at the same time.

rayiner 7y ago
We already have very low taxes compared to countries that offer free healthcare, education, etc. Young Democrats are under the misperception that we can pay for all those things without raising taxes on them, just on corporations and people making over $10 million per year. They don’t realize what those other countries do to pay for those services. Our former au pair is a young German lady who previously worked an entry level office job in Germany. When she tore her ACL, she was able to pay the hospital and EMT bills out of her own income. Her taxes and mandatory social insurance payments were also 40% of her paycheck. And although college in Germany is almost free, she wasn’t eligible to enroll based on her scores on the abitur exam. She definitely would’ve gone to college in the US, but only about 30% of German high school graduates enroll in college, versus almost 70% here. I personally like the German system a lot. I think college is overrated and that it’s great that in Germany you can graduate high school at 16, do an apprenticeship, and get a real job with room for growth. But young liberals in the US seem to be under the view that you can have your cake and eat it too. They don’t realize that Germany, etc., doesn’t match their vision for the US, where the government pays for people with average grades to get social science degrees and put off getting a real job until 25, while taxing entry level workers next to nothing.
- pintxo 7y ago
  Actually Germany is currently (2018) at about 55% of people joining college [1]. So things are changing. [1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/72005/umfrage/entwicklung-der-studienanfaengerquote/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/72005/umfrage...
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  How is paying 8k more for taxes but 10k less on insurance or education not a win? Yeah you have higher taxes cry me a river your out of pocket spending is less. In Roosevelt's day anyone earning 1 million + was taxed at 95%. Basically meaning all their money went back to the state. It encouraged them to spend it on business and grow their business holdings. The big wins come in having a single-payer for health who can say : No we will not pay $35 to hospitals for a single ibuprofen, stop gouging prices. Or we will not pay more than $x for insulin - don't like it? We'll end your patent term for non-generics early so prices CAN go down. It's that collective bargaining combined WITH the end of insurance salaries. More money is free'd up for hospitals, and if we can make the system tech-streamlined, we could save even more. The more we automate the entire stack the better for the entire billing/management of funds to drs/hospitals.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    > How is paying 8k more for taxes but 10k less on insurance or education not a win? Yeah you have higher taxes cry me a river your out of pocket spending is less. It may well be a win! I think it is. But that’s not the pitch liberal Democrats are making. They’re saying “you can have European style benefits, but you won’t pay European style taxes. The top 1% and corporations will pay for all of it.” That’s not realistic. > In Roosevelt's day anyone earning 1 million + was taxed at 95%. Basically meaning all their money went back to the state. It encouraged them to spend it on business and grow their business holdings. Roosevelt’s economic ideas were bad and the US and Europe have spent decades unwinding similar policies. That’s the lesson liberal Democrats refuse to take away from Europe. The Reagan Revolution happened in Europe as well as the US. Industries were deregulated, businesses were privatized, and taxes were lowered. Europe continues to move further to the right. And Germany, France, and Sweden don’t “soak the rich” as the US tries to do: https://images.app.goo.gl/xbVh5c9cXHqfMESx6 https://images.app.goo.gl/xbVh5c9cXHqfMESx6. They have high but relatively flat taxes on individuals, and moderate taxes on corporations and capital gains. An in-depth comparison of Germany and US taxation is here: https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2017/382 https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2.... Overall US taxes are about 10% of GDP lower than Germany ($2 trillion). A small part of that difference comes from lower taxes on capital (23% versus 27% overall). The real difference is significantly lower taxes on labor, and massively lower taxes on consumption. If we moved to a German tax system, it wouldn’t “soak the rich.” Capitalists would see their taxes go up a little. Labor and consumers would see their taxes go up massively.

ryukafalz 7y ago

>They just want “free” things provides by government and lower taxes. As a young American myself, I would gladly pay (significantly) more in taxes in exchange for a much stronger social safety net. Broadly, this is for two reasons, one altruistic and one selfish: 1) There are tons of people in dire economic straits through no direct fault of their own; those whose industries are dying, those whom our healthcare system has failed, etc. I can't ignore this in good conscience if there's something we as a society can do to improve the situation. 2) While I'm well-off as a tech worker right now, and demand is high, there's no guarantee that will continue to be the case indefinitely. It would give me much peace of mind if the lower bound of how far I could ultimately fall was a lot higher than it is now.

rayiner 7y ago
A “well off tech worker” is already paying taxes similar to what they would in Europe. An individual making $300k pays a marginal rate of almost 45% in California, about the same as in Germany. But in Germany, the marginal rate of 42% kicks in for income above about $70,000. In California, that rate is 30% for a single person. Their equivalent of FICA taxes is 17.5% for the employee share, versus 7.5% here. (And both their medical and pension social insurance taxes are only paid on the first $70-80k of income, versus here where SS is paid on up to $130k and Medicare is paid on all income.) It’s worth playing around with a German tax calculator: https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calculator_germany.php https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calcu.... A single person making 30,000 euros in Germany pays about 25% of total income in taxes. In California it’s about 15%. Someone making 300,000 euros pays about 45%. In California, it’s almost exactly the same, 44%. That’s not counting the 20% VAT, which will disproportionately hit the person making 30,000. (That also doesn’t count all the middle class deductions which don’t exist in Germany, like the mortgage interest deduction.) I’m perfectly willing to pay German taxes to have a German style welfare state. (It would be even better if we had Germans running those new public services.) The question is whether middle class Americans are willing to do so.
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  Give it to them for a decade and then try taking it away and you'll see how much even Republicans will begin enjoying the benefits.

gnusty_gnurc 7y ago

The socialist/capitalist divide isn't so interesting. What's interesting is whether we're ever capable of reeling in failed programs and axing entrenched bureaucracy. There is no major party seriously advocating for the reduction of the size, scope and spending of government. So most discourse is centered about unproductive hair-splitting of how much we should increase budgets for department X or program Y.

bryanlarsen 7y ago
> There is no major party seriously advocating for the reduction of the size, scope and spending of government That is a familiar Republican talking point. "Starve the beast"; "Drain the swamp", et cetera.
- gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
  > talking point Hasn't really happened - government and spending has grown healthily under Trump.